Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lena Piękniewska


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep.  Sandstein  13:23, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

Lena Piękniewska

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This has been tagged for insufficient sources and questionable notability for over a year, and in that time nothing significant has been done to improve it. That is a long time for a BLP. Nothing currently cited in the article even starts to establish notability. I did a Google and Google news search. I found lots of lnks to YouTube and other online videos of her performances. I found some track lists and concert announcements, mostly in Polish. I found one interview, also in polish. I found a number of passing mentions of her. Discogs lists one album and two ;'compilations" with zero commentary and no reviews.BBC Music lists only the album, also with no comments. I did not find any reviews or critical commentary on any site, nor any sustained discussion of her except for the interview. Does not appear to be notable at this time. Does not pass WP:GNG, nor WP:NBIO, nor WP:NMUSIC. Possibly this is WP:TOOSOON, but in any case this is not currently a valid article. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 23:38, 14 April 2018 (UTC) DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 23:38, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete - Not notable. Acnetj (talk) 00:19, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Poland -related deletion discussions. WeAreAll Here  talk  02:39, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. WeAreAll Here  <sub style="color:blue">talk  02:39, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
 * <small class="delsort-notice">Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. <b style="color:red">We</b><b style="color:orange">Are</b><b style="color:blue">All</b> Here  <sub style="color:blue">talk  02:40, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment Fairly extensive coverage in the "News" section. Dedicated articles from Polish websites. Don't know enough to evaluate the sources. If the originator of the article can't take the time to incorporate such sources and explain why dedicated article in these venues confer notability in a Polish context, deletion would be fair. Tapered (talk) 05:31, 15 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep She has performed at the most important Polish music festival. I mentioned it, and gave a reliable source (official site of the festival). She is listed there among other performers - most of them are the top of Polish artists. But to be honest, I've never heard about her before. BasileusAutokratorPL (talk) 11:27, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I suppose you refer to http://festiwalopole.com/festiwal-opole-2015/scenki-obscenki-czyli-0 . I looked over it via Google Translate, which is often good enough to get a fair idea of what a source says. In the translation her name is mentioned as one of "a galaxy of song stars" but nothing else is said about her. At Wikipedia, notability is based largely not on what a person has done, but on what others have published about them, and this source really doesn't discuss her in any depth at all. Can you cite any reviews of her work, or any sources that actually discuss her at some length, say 3-4 paragraphs or more? DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 23:58, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, there are some interviews with her, made independently by two journalists. She speaks there about her life, career and current projects. BasileusAutokratorPL (talk) 11:09, 19 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete Several Polish language refs were added—unfortunately none from a reliable source. Nothing new to meet other criteria of WP:NM. Ergo, delete. Tapered (talk) 03:05, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment Nothing of the kinds of record sales in Poland necessary for WP:NM. Last CD release 2012. Tapered (talk) 03:07, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep This discussion by people who do not know Polish music scene and Polish language and use google translate to make judgement is a bit troublesome. The references I have added are based on "Gazeta Wyborcza" archive (which publishes "Co Jest Grane" and "Wysokie Obcasy" and local cities editions) a newspaper, which is a bit like the New York Times (toute proportion gardée). The statement above that these are not "reliable sources" is greatly misleading. The fact that she has been  interviewed several times by "Gazeta Wyborcza" (and its local editions) by itself points to her notability. The original nomination which states that there is "zero commentary and no reviews" is truly disappointing. She is a member of the most important Polish variety show "Pożar w Burdelu", perhaps equivalent to "Saturday Night Life" (again toute proportion gardée). There are countless articles about "Pożar w Burdelu" in the Polish press and, in particular, her performances commenting on her "nostalgia" voice in this fast pacing show. She is engaged in Polish-Jewish dialog in the last 10-15 years and she has been invited to give concerts in very prestigious events - for example those marking 75th anniversary of uprising in Warsaw Ghetto this year. It is stated above that she sings "mostly in Polish". It is not true: she sings her second album in Hebrew, which is unique for a Polish singer and required her to learn the language. Is the point made by the "deletion nominator"  that to be notable on English Wikipedia one has to sing in English? The discussion above misses the point that notability is not the amount of CDs sold but also a truly unique and personal voice which Piękniewska (Bem) indeed has, not only she writes and composes the music, but also engages in social commentaries/topics like feminism or Polish-Jewish relationships in contemporary Poland. It is all now very well document in the references provided. Nobody in the Polish version of the Wikipedia questions her notability. Puncinus (talk) 17:34, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
 * "This discussion by people who do not know Polish musical scene and Polish language..." Well. Duh. Beginning in that fashion is bad form. Obviously, non-Poles aren't familiar. And to use that opening makes me suspect a snow job. We need to see dedicated articles in reliable sources. You've loaded the page with all sorts of references. I haven't seen anything that connects them to the reliable source you mentioned. That many references and tying them to the reputable source (which readers are expected to take your word for) looks like an attempt to use large quanities of information to divert attention away from a lack of reliable sources and notability. Delete recommendation is now stronger. And...duh..I just did my homework, to discover that you are the originator and dominant editor of the article. Tapered (talk) 00:10, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Rather than amend my somewhat intemperate remarks, I'll add some more. You're using emotional, cultural, and artistic arguments that have nothing to do with inclusion in Wikiipedia English. Wikipedia is not about virtue—the world is full of virtuous people noT included here. And Wikipedia is full of notable scoundrels. The rules dictate that Adolf Hitler is notable. And record sales are indeed a keY point for inclusion/exclusion according to WP:NM. Ms Pieknewska is almost certainly a worthy artist and person. That doesn't confer notability at Wikipedia. Tapered (talk) 00:53, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
 * PPS A search of Gazaeta Syborcza yielded no hits for Ms. Pieknewska. I rest my case. Tapered (talk) 01:08, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
 * It is not "Gazeta Syborcza" but "Gazeta Wyborcza". You need to go to its archives (it is not free - the same way as the New York Times archives are not free); this is probably why you can not see the source. You can not check notability by googling. I wrote above that "Co jest grane", "Wysokie Obcasy", "Gazeta Łódż", "Gazeta Poznań", i.e. the sources which document Ms Lena Piękniewska article, are all attributed to Gazeta Wyborcza which is one of the most reliable news sources in Poland. But the other sources are also reliable. The same way as the New Your Times is publishing "Sunday Review", "Book Review", "Times Magazine" or "Style Magazine", Gazeta Wyborcza publishes "Co jest grane"  which is a section describing cultural events in Poland together with reviews, criticism etc. They also publish "Wysokie Obcasy" which is  well regarded weekly for woman (I reference them). The fact that she was interviewed several times by these reliable sources, that many independent music and theater critics write about her in a positive way, that she is performing in distinguished theaters in Poland, that she is a composer and lyricists makes her notable. The fact that I wrote this article doesn't make it less reliable, as you seem to imply - I am in no way associated with her. Puncinus (talk) 02:36, 22 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Since you saw fit to jump left, I will also. And thanks for the help with my errant typing—part concentration, part chronic discomfort. I used the search line of Gazeta Wyborcza to search for hits. There were none. "You can not check notability by googling"—on which planet? Not by google alone, certainly, but a google search is the beginning of any research for anyone with a computer. And the template for this page includes links to google to check for—notability. People not familiar with Poland's cultural scene and language have no way to verify the reliability of any of the reference websites you've added to the article. The fact that you wrote and are defending this article does indeed make you a likely biased commenter, and for anyone reading this who doesn't take that into account—I have oceanfront property in Arizona for them. (see US map). Tapered (talk) 03:19, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I am referencing reliable newspaper sources from one of the most important/influential newspaper in Poland (and other reliable newspapers). You can go to the "archiwum" of Gazeta Wyborcza here http://www.archiwum.wyborcza.pl/Archiwum/0,0.html  or http://classic.wyborcza.pl/archiwumGW/0,0.html and search Lena Piękniewska (use ę in her name). You will find many articles/announcements/interviews about her - some of them I sourced, not all. To get full access to the archive you need to pay small amount ($15).  If you do not have inclination to do so (which I understand), you can get Gazeta Wyborcza article from an interlibrary loan.  The same way the New York Times articles are available through paid subscription  but they are considered good sources. Puncinus (talk) 03:52, 22 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep Now that it's been comprehensively explained...there's enough coverage by reliable sources of Poland to warrant inclusion as per WP:NM. Tapered (talk) 04:50, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
 * please note that all resources are in Polish. There are no English-language resources to back-up this article. Notability criteria might be met as for Polish language Wikipedia, but for English is not verifiable by a non-Polish speaker. And as such I think it should be deleted and wait until there are English-language sources. Or at least some. Lantuszka (talk) 10:07, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Neutral, bordering on weak keep. But I think there should be a community discussion (if there wasn't already one), or at least clarification, on whether notability requires that at least some sources be in English. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 13:15, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26  (spin me / revolutions) 20:32, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment @ Lantuszka & 198.84.253.202. You'll note that Google translation exists. It's not perfect, but it suffices for non-technical articles such as this one. The translations show that the subject receives significant coverage in substantial, reliable sources in the Polish media, meeting the first criterion of WP:NM. Tapered (talk) 07:27, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep. Subject has been a well-known and considerably publicized performer in Poland for over a decade and has more than sufficient notability to easily pass the threshold of Wikipedia article retention.   Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 16:52, 25 April 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.