Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Leonard Arthur Bethell


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎ __EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__. Withdrawn by nominator. (non-admin closure) CycloneYoris talk! 20:53, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Leonard Arthur Bethell

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)


 * Delete Doesn't seem to pass AUTHOR. I did a newspaper search at the LOC from 1870 to 1915. His name never turns up. I'd expect some kind of mention of his books. Oaktree b (talk) 20:43, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

The French article is longer, but not all that much help. It does say that the Algerian were there with armored vehicles. I could, actually, conceive of such a battle being ignored since Algeria would have been newly independent and probably wasn't expected to stand chance against Israel. That doesn't mean that that's what happened though. As far as the author goes, he was a wartime general who saw action in this war. How is that not notable. I think you must be getting that assessment by looking for book reviews or something. I also strongly suggest checking in Arabic. Hth Elinruby (talk) 01:37, 11 April 2023 (UTC) <--moving thisto the discussion about the battle in the Yom Kippur War. Elinruby (talk) 21:57, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I expected this to be a delete, but it's probably not, I think he's a keep. That didn't find his books on searching for his real name might be because he published under the pseudonym "Pousse Cailloux", as the article says, and also using merely his initials with no name. He and his books do get mentions by others, e.g. an article in the Journal of Asian Studies by Carrington, and he's quoted here. I find his books still widely on sale in the second hand market, which implies that they sold well in his day; I found multiple copies of Jungle Tales and Garden of the Hesperides available for sale everywhere from the UK to New Zealand. I suspect he was a sufficient author in his day to pass. The article could do with some work; some parts of it are rather interesting original research and include speculation that isn't appropriate in WP; for example, we should not make the connection between the date of his house being bombed and the death of his wife, that should be done elsewhere and then reported here. Elemimele (talk) 21:53, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
 * "Pousse Cailloux" brings up an article about the French 75 pounder gun in newspapers from 1916. Mentions him briefly still not enough for notability. Oaktree b (talk) 01:36, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I found two of his books in LOC - 'His Majesty's Shirt-sleeves' 1930, and 'Tales from the Outposts' 1932. Maybe the search window (from 1870 to 1915) was too narrow ? Charles.bowyer (talk) 18:36, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * NB I used his real name - Leonard Arthur Bethell Charles.bowyer (talk) 18:40, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Draftify per nom. The article in its current state doesn't provide evidence of notability, and I was unable to find any significant coverage online. Sojourner in the earth (talk) 08:46, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure that LOC (Library of Congress - I assume) is the best place to look for him. British Library (Asian section) is better - there you will find his letters, in the manuscript section (restricted section in fact), his books, and other references. Some parts of my article can be easily changed, but the problem area is 'notability'. I believe him to be notable - from the books he published - but trying to match Wikipedia's standard measures has been a struggle. Apart from the British Library entries, I can say that the authors he worked with on 'Tales from the Outposts' include significant national and literary figures - I count 19 Wikipedia entries among them. (See article). Charles.bowyer (talk) 19:47, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * It was a search in American newspapers, so he might not have gotten much readership in the US. I have a few Canuck newspaper archives I use, I'll try there later. Oaktree b (talk) 20:32, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I think your comment was intended for another deletion discussion. Mccapra (talk) 07:02, 11 April 2023 (UTC)


 * yes my mistake. will move it shortly.Thanks for the good catch. Elinruby (talk) 19:21, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

PS can someone tell me the correct way of putting a comment on this stream? at the moment I’m using text edit and it doesn’t produce all the features. Charles.bowyer (talk) 21:19, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I thought it might be useful to add some background – because a number of people have asked me the question, why am I interested in Bethell.? Over the years, I have read widely – some books stay with you, some don’t. Bethell has stayed. Not my top author, but at number 15 in my top 30. Virtually all the others in the top 30 are well-known and respected authors and all except 2 have articles on Wikipedia. Bethell is one of the two, of course. His books are known but there is nothing about the person. It was suggested it was time something was put up about him. It was further suggested that I should be the person to do this! So here I am.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   10:57, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment Given the large number of sources in the article, it would be helpful if someone could identify the WP:THREE best sources here. Regards, MrsSnoozyTurtle 02:26, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources. The subject passes Notability (people), which says: "People are presumed if they have received significant coverage in  that are,  of each other, and .If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not usually sufficient to establish notability." Sources   The book notes: "It was commanded throughout by Major L. A. Bethell, O.B.E., who had come to the Regiment from the 8th Gurkhas when he was posted to the 2nd Battalion as a double-company officer on its formation in 1908. He had been with the Assam Military Police for a number of years. Bethell was a strange and in some ways eccentric character, and many stories were told about him and his unorthodox disciplinary methods, but there was never any criticism of his work as the Depot Commander throughout the war, and the 1st Battalion owed him a deep debt of gratitude for the fine drafts he sent it. He never lost sight of the one essential—that the depot existed for the sole purpose of maintaining the Battalion in the field by sending it the best trained material possible in the time available—and he also showed unusual breadth of vision in the great care he took to safe-guard the health and happiness of the families of the men on service. The Indian Army system proved to be antiquated and unsuited to the demands of modern war, and Bethell summed the situation up well when he wrote: ..." The book further notes: "Bethell profited from the experience of Kitchener's Army in England, and applied the same methods as far as they were applicable to the special conditions of the Indian Army."   The book notes on page 216: "D. S. Meldrum had left the London Office before the war, and from 1920 to 1939 James Blackwood was helped by Lieut. Colonel L. A. Bethell, who wrote in 'Maga' as "Pousse Cailloux" or "Forepoint Severn," and who edited the most successful twelve-volume series of stories collected from the Magazine, "Tales from the Outposts." The book notes on page 221: "L. A. Bethell had left for work on armament production, and many of the staffs from George Street and Paternoster Row had gone into the Forces." </li> <li> The advertisement notes: "His Majesty's Shirt-Sleeves. By Pousse Cailloux. 'Deserves the publishers' description of 'epic,' and apart from the element in it, it has a value far beyond that of mere entertainment.' —Scotsman 'Can be heartily recommended.' —Graphic 'A remarkably fine book.' —Morning Post"</li> <li> The book notes on page 53: "During the years 1923–25, while the 1st Battalion was helping to keep the peace around its "home," the 2nd Battalion, under the command of Lieutenant Colonel L. A. Bethell, was farther afield doing a tour of duty in the Khyber. The period proved an uneventful one." The book notes on page 55: "In May 1924, Brevet Lieutenant-Colonel A. M. Mills, D. S. O., who was later to become Colonel of the Regiment, joined the battalion as 2nd in command. He took over officiating command when Colonel Bethell was invalided home in August of the same year." The book notes on 164: "271. BETHELL, Major LEONARD ARTHUR. Joined the 2nd Battalion as permanent Commandant from the 1/10th Gurkhas in September 1929, Commanded the Battalion until August 1925. Left the Battalion, on transfer to the 2/10th Gurkhas as Permanent Commandant, in February 1926. O.B.E." The book notes on page 172: "Rank attained up to 1937: Lieut.-Colonel. Name: L. A. Bethell, O.B.E. Tenure of command: (2nd Bn.) 1922–1926." </li> <li> The journal notes on 80: "Some months ago, I think it was in the July, 1931, number of "Blackwood's Magazine," an article entitled "Experiments in the Primitive," appeared written under the nom-de-plume of Forepoint Severn. This was an excellent article, covering entirely new ground, in which the author showed, for the first time, probably, in the history of shikar, that there is a definite peculiar influence which man exerts over animals. There is some peculiar form of mental "telepathy" which, if a man sits waiting patiently, murder in his heart, to shoot an animal, seems to warn that animal, who probably never appears. How far that influence can act, and to what range, has not yet been discovered; but that such an influence is present is coming to be more and more universally recognized." The book notes on page 81: "Anyhow, whatever theories people may have about this, we do all of us owe a debt of gratitude to "Forepoint Severn" for his courage in being the first to bring to light what must, after all, have seemed at first sight to be a crazy theory." </li> <li> The article notes: "The Garden of the Hesperides: Forepoint Severn (Blackwood; 7s. 6d.). Recollections of travel and. military and sporting life by a retired colonel. Style friendly and spirited, but author inclined to forget that what interests him personally may have little general appeal-e.g., the inclusion of a treatise on apple culture in England, the author's present occupation." </li> <li> The book notes: ""Forepoint Severn" gives another example of the effect of thought-waves when he was shooting Ammon. He had been watching some of these magnificent wild sheep at rather long range for hours on end waiting for a chance to shoot. At long last he decided to risk the shot, and, simultaneously with his decision, the three Ammon, which had paid no attention to him all day, jumped to their feet, fully alert, even though he had not made the slightest sound or movement. He then states that the Ammon must have instantly become aware of his intention to shoot by means of thought-waves giving them warning of danger." </li> <li> The article notes: ""His Majesty's Shirt Sleeves," by Pousse Cailloux. Here is a record, obviously based upon fact, of the service rendered by British officers and native troops on the North-East frontier of India. Told with humour, it gives an insight of the price at which security and order are brought in difficult country. (Wm. Blackwood and Sons, Ltd. 7s. 6d.)" </li> <li> The article notes: "Be his pen-name what the author will, his stories are as English as cricket, and as real. Fiction is his thin veneer over descriptions of the life on the Frontier of white men, Turkos, Tibetans, Pathans, and once at least the pretence of fiction is altogether dropped, and in "A Footnote" we have, with Younghusband as hero and with high praise for mules, direct narrative of a transport officer's experi-ences of the expedition to Lhasa. A woman is present in one story, white heroine of a gruesome tale, sleeping with her husband's corpse till the superstitious bearers brought it, not knowing what they bore, ..." </li> <li> The article notes: "Eastward, above and beyond the frozen Himalayan heights lay China, potential invader. At home, uneasy Government watching over India. Was the icy barrier inviolable? Was there a way through? Years before, a man said there was, that he had seen it; but he was dead. With his Gurkhas and load carriers, provisioned for many weeks, Forepoint Severn sets out to find the answer. Drummond, officer of pioneers, soldier and explorer, once a noted member of the force that Younghusband had taken to Lhasa, on leave in Scotland, having heard of the quest, takes train to Peking and disappears into the blue. "Look out for me." he writes. Such is the theme of "The Blind Road" by Forepoint Severn (8s 6d, Blackwood), a truly amazing narrative, essentially a man's book, and one that will stir the blood." </li> <li> The article notes: "Until this book of Forepoint Severn's the North East Frontier has lacked its Herodotus and Xenophon, its Stevenson and Verne. Now we have a man's tale which for vivid incident and descriptive power is likely to be long without a rival. On to his personal knowledge of the grim borderland north of Assam the author has grafted a thrilling and fascinating tale." </li> <li> The article notes: "There is a strange story in "Blackwood's Magazine" this month. It is called "The Bat Artist." Out East a "bat-artist" is a chatterer, and this story is written by Forepoint Severn. The setting is in the Austrian Tyrol, "some years ago." A Scottish character is introduced in the person of one Brodie-Munro, whose particular obsession is the superiority over all others of the Nordic races." </li> <li> The article notes: "It is a long time since I read a book of travel and adventure that gripped me as much as "The Blind Road" did. It is a bulky book of 442 pages, but not a page is to be missed; one reads on, enthralled, to the last word. Mr. Severn writes of an expedition, of which he was the leader, through the rain, forests and swamps and amongst the foothills of the north-east frontier of India to investigate the rumour—it was little more—that there was a way, through the great Himalayan chain, between China and India. ... A great story, supremely well told." </li> </ol>There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Leonard Arthur Bethell (also known as L. A. Bethell, Forepoint Severn, and Pousse Cailloux) to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 09:46, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Cunard - thank you very much for your thorough and extensive coverage of this topic. Honestly - your research is better than mine ! If you wish to add to the Wiki article at all, I would be grateful. Charles.bowyer (talk) 16:14, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

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 * Keep. Had a look in newspaper coverage but didn't find anything of note. But I was only looking under his real name. Thanks to the good work of Cunard in digging out the above references, especially the first listed, my view is the subject passes GNG. Cunard's 1st source contributes to WP:BASIC and adding in the combination of sources 2 & 4 may or may not be sufficient to take it over the line of the criteria listed, it's borderline. Anyway, I judge the subject and book review sources together to pass GNG and make the subject sufficiently notable to have a Wikipedia article. Rupples (talk) 14:50, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Withdraw I’m amazed at how much everyone has been able to find. Thank you! No need to prolong this discussion further I think. Mccapra (talk) 05:54, 24 April 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.