Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Leopold Frankenberger, Jr. (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Sarahj2107 (talk) 07:19, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Leopold Frankenberger, Jr.
AfDs for this article: 
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For many years, it was a redirect. Then, in 2009, a standalone article was created. It was AfDed, with the nomination quickly withdrawn. Subsequently, there was consensus at the talk page to merge the content to Alois Hitler, since the very existence of the individual is doubtful. A couple of days ago it was recreated by a user in good standing. However, I still do not see how we need a standalone article, and we should have once a proper AfD discussion. Ymblanter (talk) 07:49, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk &bull;&#32;mail) 12:21, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions. Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk &bull;&#32;mail) 12:21, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

Redirect to something akin de:Frankenberger-These Agathoclea (talk) 13:16, 18 October 2016 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Black Kite (talk) 09:56, 28 October 2016 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 06:55, 5 November 2016 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Final relist. North America1000 03:06, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete due to invalid sourcing. The subject is alleged to have been Adolf Hitler's father Alois's biological father. The first cited sentence states, "Nazi claims have disputed that Hitler had any Jewish heritage", sourced to, a book which states that "Nazi official Hans Frank suggested that Alois's mother had been employed as a housekeeper for a Jewish family in Graz, and that the family's 19-year-old son Leopold Frankenberger had fathered Alois". So that contradicts the sentence it is being cited for. For that matter, the book's next sentence states that "no record has been produced of Leopold Frankenberger's existence". The second cited sentence states, "Frankenberger was born early in 1818 in Graz, Austria to Leopold Frankenberger, Sr. and his wife, likely during the annual trade fair in Graz", sourced to . That page has no mention of Frankenberger. This article appears to be based primarily on misinterpretation or misuse of the sources that it cites and partly on unsourced speculation. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 15:17, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
 * More on the misuse of sources:
 * 1) The article says, "19-year-old Leopold fathered Alois Hitler out of wedlock", cited to . That book says, "Attorney Hans Frank speculated that the Fuhrer's paternal grandfather, Maria Anna Schicklgruber might have been impregnated by 19 year old Leopold Frankenberger, son of her alleged Jewish employer. Most historians reject this theory because no Frankenberger family resided in Graz circa 1836 when Alois Hitler Sr. was conceived."
 * 2) The article says, "He [Frankenberger] was alleged to have paid the child-support money as hush money", cited to . That book says, "The third possibility [of candidates for Alois Hitler's father] was that Maria Anna was working for a Jewish family known as the Frankenbergers. She could have been made pregnant by one of the sons, Leopold Frankenberger. In an effort to hush up the matter, the Frankenbergers paid her some money as compensation. [¶] The problem with this theory is that there were no Jews living in Graz during this period. They had been banished and did not return until around 1860s, long after Alois was born. Even if the Frankenbergers did exist, this theory implied that they had the money to buy Maria Anna's silence. Since Adolf Hitler's paternal grandfather was poor, then the possible father of Alois Hitler could not have been a Frankenberger."
 * 3) The article says, "Leopold and his father paid child support for Alois for several years, so he probably played at least a moderate role in his son's early life", cited to . That book does claim that the Frankenbergers paid child support to Maria, but says nothing at all about whether Leopold had any role in Alois's early life. In addition, the book says that Leopold Frankenberger died circa 1860, whereas this article portrays him as living an additional 52 years until 1912. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 01:31, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep. since the article can be improved with better source-s-se the German WP article mentioned above.  The present article should be rewritten on the basis of the information there. The subject is notable. I'm not sure what the title should best be.  DGG ( talk ) 01:46, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 03:06, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment I will ping who is generally knowledgeable about this topic. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 02:36, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment -- I'm not familiar with the subject of Hitler's ancestry; I'd like to ping who have edited on related topics. I would add that in the current form I do not find the article adding value to the project; I thus believe it should be redirected to Alois Hitler until such time that it's sufficiently improved to warrant a stand-alone article.  K.e.coffman (talk) 06:47, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete, as stand alone article; per WP:fringe and fails WP:RS for WP:V. This "article" remains me of what Sir Ian Kershaw wrote about the rumors of Strasser's statement on Hitler's sexuality: "ought to be viewed as the fanciful anti-Hitler propaganda of an outright political enemy"; p. 219 of Hitler: A Biography. He goes on to state there were other tales, which have "hinted darkly" at Hitler ancestry. Hitler's family tree is on page 4 and shows Alois his father and Johann Georg Hiedler with a strong arrow and a smaller secondary arrow to Johann Nepomuk Hiedler (Huttler) possibility Alois father. Johann Georg Hiedler was during his lifetime the stepfather and posthumously legally declared birth father of Alois. p. 2. Kershaw gives the story no validity as to Frankenberger. As noted by historian Frank McDonough, Leopold Frankenberger's existence has never been documented. p. 20 of Hitler and the Rise of the Nazi Party. It should be remembered that Wikipedia is not a tabloid and not a newspaper, either. Kierzek (talk) 18:11, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete per assessment by editor Kierzek. If anyone wants to create an en.wiki article similar to de:Frankenberger-These, this can be done from scratch. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:35, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete Concur with both and . This article should be deleted.--Obenritter (talk) 02:35, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete In light of the above concerns, particularly those by Kierzek and Metropolitan90, we can at least TNT the article. The sources are either not reliable or do support the content. Accordingly, a TNT works well here. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 02:38, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete per improper sourcing and the fact that he hasn't even been officially proven to have existed Snuggums (talk / edits) 06:30, 20 November 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.