Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Les Légions Noires (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus/keep. Batch nominations can be problematic, if users strongly support the inclusion of certain pages and do not comment significantly on others; it may be appropriate to nominate some of these pages individually in the future. – Luna Santin  (talk) 21:17, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Les Légions Noires
AfDs for this article: 
 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

A huge walled garden of unsourced band articles, some of which have already been tagged with unreferenced and/or notability. Even though the main article asserts that these bands and releases are all "underground", I still can't verify so much that they even exist, outside of unreliable sources such as MySpace and Last.fm. As a result, I believe that these acts and their albums (excepting one demo which I prodded) fail WP:MUSIC entirely. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 19:32, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.   --  Ten Pound Hammer  and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 19:38, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Yes, I realize some of the Mütiilation albums have a review, but reviews alone generally aren't enough to support albums, and I'm concerned about the reliability of the review sites. Ten Pound Hammer  and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 19:49, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep I believe they are notable indeed - only in the underground. Mütiilation is notable with no need to argue, and if you want to verify that they exist you can go to Metal Archives - where you'll find most if not all of them. It should be noted that if something is on MA, it means its existence has been comproved. And though not all the bands are notable (for example, an article about Dzlvarv or Vzaeurvbtre is probably pointless), the movement is notable. Ciacchi (talk) 00:17, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Is Metal-archives a reliable source? I wasn't sure, it didn't look very reputable to me. I'm not finding any other sources at all either. Ten Pound Hammer  and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 00:23, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, Metal Archives has been deemed an unreliable source on numerous occasions. Being on Metal Archives means absolutely nothing - a band that has released 5 copies of a demo can end up on there. LuciferMorgan (talk) 22:43, 10 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Neutral at present Gonna have a look for sources and such but, thought best to point out now that Existence isn't the same as notability as the keep argument by Ciacchi seems to suggest. Jasynnash2 (talk) 09:09, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Neutral at present The scene is genuinely stupidly influential given its obscurity, but finding sources is going to be extremely difficult, given that the LLN refused to give interviews and the like and distributed their material exclusively between themselves. There's a couple of mentions in the Terrorizer articles I mentioned on the discussion page, and I could fairly easily dig out some reviews in print sources; I don't think we can use Metal Archives as a source in this case. I'll look for more references in the meantime. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 12:28, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Well, Mutiilation probably pass WP:MUSIC by having multiple albums released through Drakkar Productions. The others are struggling with that criterion. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 13:33, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I definitely think the articles should be kept, as I've argued before, but it's been an uphill battle all along, because the groups have little online presence. The simple fact that Mutiilation have an article on five other Wikipedias is a fair indication that the group has a significant international following, but most of the sources are going to be offline and not in English. Chubbles (talk) 13:07, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete in the absence of citations from reliable sources, which are required to comply with the verifiability policy. Stifle (talk) 14:14, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.   --  Fabrictramp  |  talk to me  23:21, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep Les Légions Noires exists in four Wikipedias, while Mütiilation appears in six—looks to me like they are notable enough. Sourcing is always a problem for even the most notable of black metal acts, but I am fairly certain something usable can be found given time and patience. = ∫tc 5th Eye 13:11, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep Mostly for the reasons invoked by user Ciacchi and Chubbles. I agree that the article has to bee scrutinized and reduced to the established facts. However as this AfD discussion is about several articles, I would propose the following: Delete for the articles Black Murder and Satanicum Tenebrae as those bands have no release on any remotely official outlet. Merge for the article William Roussel as he is the only member of Mütiilation and not notable otherwise. Keep for the all the Mütiilation albums as they have been released by official labels. Irina666 (talk) 14:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep These are extremely well known bands in the black metal scene. You can merge the William Roussel article, but, keep every other one. Vlad Tepes has side project bands, which, under WP:BAND are notable. Undeath (talk) 15:02, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment, I'd like to see this article kept as well, but I'm interested in which bit of WP:BAND you think Vlad Tepes et al pass. Mutiilation can probably get through, but without sources the rest are screwed. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 16:58, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The part about releasing multiple works in a notable label. Undeath (talk) 21:26, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment WP:BAND states "Has released two or more albums on a major label or one of the more important indie labels (i.e. an independent label with a history of more than a few years and a roster of performers, many of which are notable)." Vlad Tepes clearly don't meet this criterion. As far as I can tell they haven't released any albums on a notable label at all. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 03:01, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep - Similar to the Elephant 6 collective. While black metal might not be everyone's cup of tea, it's certainly has a passionate international following.  --Oakshade (talk) 06:52, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete People who say these groups are well known amongst black metal are talking total horseshit - simply put, these are blatant lies.. It's about time this little black metal fanclub actually adhered to Wikipedia policy, and not keep creating articles on non-notable crap. I'm sick of seeing AFD after AFD on self-released black metal tripe that has no notability. Also, none of the above keeps are actually valid since they have no adequate reasoning behind their keeps. If this is kept due to the invalid keeps above, I have every intention of renominating this article. It's because of users such as the above that metal's presence on Wikipedia is seen as a joke. To those black metal fanclubbers above - read WP:MUSIC sometime. LuciferMorgan (talk) 22:43, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Could you please adhere to Wikipedia's Civility recommendations and assume good faith. I agree that to pretend that the Légions Noires are "extremely well known" is exagerated to say the least. However the interest in their material - I talk about the very sought-after reeditions of the demos by a third-party publisher - can be seen as an argument for notability. Regarding the "self-released black metal tripe" - no less than 10 of the articles tagged for deletion are about Mütiilation who has official releases on about 8 different labels. So please verify your claims before accusing other Wikipedians of amateurism. Irina666 (talk) 21:12, 13 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.