Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lew Childre (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Sources have been provided, and those advocating deletion haven't responded to them. (non-admin closure) ansh 666 01:20, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Lew Childre
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

An AfD a couple of months ago was closed as no consensus. The sources provided in that AfD were never added to the article, but the discussion and the sources can be seen here. As an aside, I don't think that AfD was an appropriate candidate for a non-admin closure, but it's a little late to complain about that now.

I agree with the deletion rationale, namely a lack of notability, and a failure to meet WP:ANYBIO. The argument was raised that the person meets #3 in WP:NAUTHOR, but I disagree with this. NAUTHOR specifies: "The person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work. In addition, such work must have been the subject of an independent book or feature-length film or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews." (Boldface added by me.) Are Childre's (mainly) self-published books "a significant or well-known work or collective body of work"? The relevant books appear to be The HeartMath Solution, Transforming Stress and Freeze Frame - the LibraryThing link in the previous AfD lists lots of titles but it lists translations and alternative titles as separate works. Now, the titles mentioned, as well as the ones that are not, are books that are basically adverts for the Heartmath institute (which is not notable per this AfD), as well as fringe science, and so the burden of proof of notability is pretty high, in my opinion. Publishers Weekly is still an acceptable source for book reviews but one such review (which, in my eyes, is a poorly written one, without any attempt at going beyond what the author says about his own book) for one of his books does not mean that the person meets WP:NAUTHOR. bonadea contributions talk 13:15, 8 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Speedy Keep
 * The last AfD closed 1 month 19 days ago. Nothing has changed with the article. Now a pernicious AfD.
 * This is the third afd, not second. The first one closed keep. This was documented on the article talk page, not sure why the nom neglected to link the Keep AfD.


 * Doc Childre is the WP:AUTHOR of many books that have received book reviews in reliable sources, per WP:AUTHOR #3 "The person has created .. a well-known work, or collective body of work, that has been the subject of .. multiple independent periodical articles or reviews."


 * Review in Journal of Holistic Healthcare, University of Westminster
 * Saletnik, Laurie. "Freeze Frame." AORN Journal Feb. 2001: 519. Review of book Freeze Frame (1998)
 * "The HeartMath Solution." Publishers Weekly 5 Apr. 1999: 236. Book review of same.
 * Marandino, Cristin. "And the Beat Goes On." Vegetarian Times Feb. 1999: 15. Review of Freeze Frame
 * Cryer, Bruce. Leadership Excellence. Sep2007, Vol. 24 Issue 9, p13-13. Abstract: "The author cites the stress management program of HeartMath, a company founded by Doc Childre"
 * Nina Utne. Utne. Sep/Oct2005, Issue 131, p28-28. 1/8p. 1 Color Photograph. Reviews the book "Transforming Stress"


 * Other Sources: NewsBank shows 34 newspaper articles. Most of them are mentions of Childre's books and/or think tank though not dedicated reviews. A couple examples:
 * Gracie Bonds Staples. "Living with your choices Course of action", The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, October 30, 2010. Quote: "Doc Childre, the internationally renowned stress expert, said.."
 * Portia Berrey, "The heart has its own brain.literally." Denver Examiner, September 21, 2009. Summarizes Childre's position on the "brain in the heart".
 * Media sources at the HearthMath website has 100s of "in the media" sources archived (I have not looked through them for reliable sources about ChildreP).


 * In addition as noted by User:Arxiloxos in the last AfD (quote):
 * In addition to his written work, note this 1992 Los Angeles Times article reporting that his Heart Zones stress-reduction tape "recently landed on the top 25 'Adult Alternative' list in Billboard magazine six weeks after its release. This is believed to be the first "therapeutic" tape to make the chart." And a March 20, 1993 page from Billboard shows that this album had been on the New Age chart for 49 weeks.


 * The noms rationale ignored all of the above reliable sources, other than Publishers Weekly. This is the same tactic used in the previous AfD completely ignoring the peer reviewed academic journals, mainstream newspapers like LA Times, etc.. I understand this is not popular article, presumably due to its connection with fringe science, but the sources are really quite solid, this is a textbook case of a unpopular topic meeting the notability guidelines and ceaseless attempts to get it deleted.  --  Green  C  14:09, 8 July 2016 (UTC)


 * "Pernicious"? No, it is possible to have different opinions without any malice being involved at all, and it would be appreciated if this discussion could take place without any name-calling or assumptions of bad faith. I have not been involved in any previous deletion discussions, so there are no ceaseless attempts here - it is perhaps telling that two experiencd editors have independently judged that it merits a deletion discussion, however. As I observed above, in my view the previous AfD was inappropriately closed by a non-admin - non-admin closures should be avoided unless the result is crystal clear, and in any case the close was not a "keep" but a "no consensus", so a new attempt to get consensus cannot possibly be a bad thing. The observation that nothing has happened with the article is correct: in my opinion, it shows no more notability today than it did a month ago. I apologise for being sloppy in checking the AfDs. The previous one did not mention a prior AfD, and Twinkle (which I used to create this AfD) also did not notice it. The burden was on me to make sure, of course. Thank you for pointing it out. Finally, when partially quoting a guideline or policy it is easy to cause inadvertent misinterpretations, so looking at the whole guideline in context is important; I included the relevant one in the nom above. --bonadea contributions talk 22:47, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. NewYorkActuary (talk) 02:10, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Health and fitness-related deletion discussions. NewYorkActuary (talk) 02:10, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 11:27, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep. Respectfully, this discussion hasn't changed my feeling, as I stated it in the first AfD, that there is enough reliable source coverage here to warrant a carefully edited article on this fringey, but notable, subject. --Arxiloxos (talk) 18:57, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
 * 'Comment -- if this is a notable subject, why does the article not reflect that? There's one citation. If the sources exist, why not add them? Nothing stops AfDs better than adding RS to an article. If there's no desire on the part of the community to improve the article, then yes, an AfD is warranted. K.e.coffman (talk) 09:31, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
 * editors are under no obligation to add citations to an article that have been discussed at afd, if a subject is notable its notable, articles don't need to show this - WP:CONTN, anyway, sources were added in October 2013 -, but were then deleted in November 2013 (with a rather unhelpful edit summary, may have been more appropriate to move them to the talkpage instead) - . Coolabahapple (talk) 13:31, 22 July 2016 (UTC)


 * 'Comment, as previously mentioned, this is the 3rd afd, not the 2nd, the 1st was closed by an admin as a "keep", who also included their reason for the decision. Coolabahapple (talk) 14:27, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep, meets WP:AUTHOR and WP:GNG, works have been reviewed in multiple independent publications as listed by  above. Coolabahapple (talk) 14:37, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete. The article as written is promotional fluff. It's been three years, people. AfD isn't cleanup but the article barely states a claim to notability ("is an author") and doesn't indicate why this particular author is important. The third prong of WP:AUTHOR isn't met. The requirement that the works be reviewed in multiple sources is a qualifier to the following: "significant or well-known work or collective body of work." No evidence of this whatsoever. Showing the the books were reviewed is not enough. Mackensen (talk) 11:49, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete -- promotional piece on an apparently non-notable subject. K.e.coffman (talk) 11:55, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete - just not noteworthy for a stand alone article and reads like a CV; Wikipedia is not a newspaper with stories of passing interest. Kierzek (talk) 13:27, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment re 3rd prong of WP:AUTHOR not met (ignoring some of the sources found by ), i suppose the same can be said about WP:GNG as the reviews are concerning Childre's works and not him (the same could probably be said about 1000s of author articles), suppose we will have to rename the article "Works of Lee Childre"? Coolabahapple (talk) 18:34, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
 * NewsBank shows 34 newspaper articles. Most of them are mentions of Childre's books and/or think tank not dedicated reviews. This is the "well known" portion of the guideline. People are free to disagree but if 34 references are not enough than nothing will be, and no rationale has been put forward to ignore all these sources (including the reviews) in determining the well known status of his body of work. --  Green  C  19:03, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 04:38, 26 July 2016 (UTC)


 * very weak keep delete  Fact is, I'm searching and from what I can find, it would be easier to source a good article and support notability for the other Lew Childre, the one who founded a well known fishing tackle company in the Ozarks .  There are a few sources on both "Lew Childre," and  on "Doc Childre." Doc is his first name, he is not a physician with a new approach, he is a music promoter who got into nostrums for "heart-brain-coherence."  That sort of thing can make you rich and famous.  In this case, I cannot find that it has.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:58, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
 * The sources listed earlier in this AfD are freely available online through many public library accounts, or they can be requested from other Wikipedians through WP:REX. It is not a good reason to ignore those sources (most quite old from the 20th century) just because they are unavailable in a Google search ca. 2016. -- Green  C  16:13, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Apologize for brevity. I have access to powerful search engines. On a Proquest news search of "Lew Childre" the top two hits are th efisherman, # 3 is a local radio announcer, and the fourth hit is our boy. First sentence of article, "His Dad was old Doc Lew Childre Sr., the Grand Ole Opry star whose major contribution to music was a little ditty called Let's Go Fishing." (Wisdom through heartfelt music: [CITY Edition] Evertz, Mary. St. Petersburg Times [St. Petersburg, Fla] 20 Sep 1992: 1F. .)  Dunno, I may have been wrong since this is a full profile that was picked up by a wire service and ran in 2 big city dailies.  I have not disintangled who the father was.  but the fishing guy was a big deal, lots more in-depth coverage than this guy has.  We do have a WP:RECENTISM problem.  The notable fisherman who founded a significant fishing tackle company should have an article.  And this boy's daddy, Doc Lew Childre, Sr. probably merits one as well (I'm no authority on mid-century country music.)    Frankly, I'm just not that impressed by the fact that a self-promoter like the Lew of this article did get written up in a few places.  I suppose that I can see your argument for keeping the article.  and will change to a very tepid keep.E.M.Gregory (talk)


 * Keep as the references supplied by GreenC seem compelling that the subject passes WP:BASIC, they need to be added to the article, particularly the academic journals and Los Angeles Times coverage. Atlantic306 (talk) 18:11, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.  The article notes: "His Dad was old Doc Lew Childre Sr., the Grand Ole Opry sta whose major contribution to music was a little ditty called Let's Go Fishing. On 100 acres of prime ranch land, rimmed by the Santa Cruz mountains, redwood trees, fruit orchards and horses, Doc Lew Childre Jr., in a California way, is following in his Dad's footsteps. We're talking very California. Childre, the younger, you see, has a hit compact disc on the charts.  But you'll find no lyrics about loyal dogs, lost love or manly fishing - Grand Ole Opry staples.  No, Childre has come up with a synthesizer album, which some consumers claim is an 'atmospheric and attitudinal conditioner' that helps them feel relaxed. Others, not attuned to this 'anti-stress' CD, think it sounds more like 'clunks and plunks.'  The believers, however, seem to outnumber the skeptics. The CD, called Heart Zones, was released in July and has been climbing the Billboard charts since. It has gone from 23 to 21 this week on the Adult Alternative Chart (i.e. New Age), an indication of heavy sales."  The article notes: "The man who wrote and performed the first stress-reduction music to reach the Billboard charts appears to be a bit stressed out by the media attention he's receiving. Still, if he can't talk, he can fax. Doc Lew Childre, a 'fortysomething' Goldsboro native now living in Boulder Creek, Calif., is 'too busy' to come to the phone but, through a publicist, agrees to field questions via fax machine. With 'Heart Zones' at No. 19 on the adult alternative charts, Childre is being besieged with requests for interviews, he faxes. Everyone apparently wants to know how 16 minutes of instrumental music got so hot. This is yuppie feel-good music to the max. Don't call it New Age or jazz. Childre and company refer to it as 'designer music,' created specifically to reduce stress, and it's being played on alternative radio stations in 35 of the nation's largest 100 markets."  The article notes: "A guy named Doc Lew Childre has had some success playing and marketing music that, he claims, will have a specific positive effect on the mind and body. He wants not only to soothe your breast, but also the major organ directly underneath it - your heart. The word 'doc' in Childre's name does not imply he is a medical or any other kind of doctor. The prefix was inherited from his father, Doc Lew Childre Sr., a legendary country musician who was one of the founders of Nashville's Grand Ole Opry. The story goes that when any of the Opry performers had a problem, they'd go to Lew to talk it out, and feel better for the effort. The nickname Doc was born. Doc Junior, whose formal education extended only to the 11th grade, is a musician, too. His first album, 1992's Heart Zones, was something of a recording-industry phenomenon. Consisting of four short songs created on a synthesizer - each tune played twice, for a total of less than 34 minutes of music - the CD was marketed as a tool to 'boost vitality.' The publicity associated with the product said the sounds on it were 'based on research in human performance' and that the recording could reduce anxiety, fatigue and stress, and enhance intuition and creativity. Enough people believed the claims to keep the debut album on Billboard magazine's adult alternative music chart for nearly a year."  The article notes: "Doc Lew Childre says they can. And they don't even have to leave their BMWs trapped in traffic on Highway 101 to do so. Just pop in Childre's new CD and let his music calm you. Childre - a 48-year-old musician and self-educated researcher in human development who says he has spent his life looking for self-fulfillment - heads the two-year-old Institute of HeartMath here. It's a 40-member, non- profit research/education organization whose goal is stress reduction. His newest album, Heart Zones, has been riding the Billboard New Age chart now for more than 25 weeks, the first music for stress reduction ever to make the list."</li> <li> The article notes: "There's plenty of laid-back music on Billboard magazine's Top Adult Alternative chart -- the place where best-selling New Age discs come to roost. But only one of the 25 albums on the chart claims to have been scientifically designed to reduce stress: 'Heart Zones,' written, performed and recorded by Doc Lew Childre, a former rock band manager turned human-potential guru. The four-song album of synthesizer music, which goes from dreamy to upbeat and back again, is currently No. 15 on the Billboard chart and has been on the chart for 39 weeks. (Of those now listed, only New Age doyenne Enya has spent more time on the chart.) Childre, in his 40s, is a native of Goldsboro, N.C., and the son of a lesser-known country singer of the same name ('Doc' is a nickname; Childre is not a college graduate). His music is an outgrowth of his self-developed HeartMath system of 'personal energy management and self-empowerment.' Childre's 1991 book for teenagers, 'Heart Smarts: Teenage Guide for the Puzzle of Life,' was well received by educators and librarians. His Institute of HeartMath in Boulder Creek, Calif., which publishes his books and records, offers popular training courses (of which 'Heart Zones' is a part) for businesses and the military and does research on Childre's theories. Those theories center on seeking counsel from the heart -- which Childre defines as the center of human intuition and wisdom."</li> </ol>There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Lew Childre to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 18:53, 30 July 2016 (UTC) </li></ul>
 * <small class="delsort-notice">Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. North America1000 08:09, 31 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep. The sources provided by Cunard and GreenC provide compelling evidence that the subject of this article meets WP:BASIC. Vanamonde (talk) 10:39, 1 August 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.