Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Liberation Army of Chameria (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. no consensus (actually no one proposed deletion) for deletion JForget  12:18, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Liberation Army of Chameria
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No proof of existence of Organization I Pakapshem (talk) 18:46, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Sources for the article are biased and ureliable and nowhere do they prove the existence of the organization. Organization is a clear greek fabrication in order to undermine the Cham Issue.

Keep: The term exist []. No reason for deletion.Alexikoua (talk) 20:28, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes the term exists among greek nationalist with a clear agenda to undermine the Cham issue. Absolutely no reliable or unbiased source and proof on the existence of UCC.--I Pakapshem (talk) 21:36, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Keep:One of the sources is Gregory Copley and  He advises a number of governments, often at head-of-state level, on these issues.He is as reliable as it gets regarding sourcesMegistias (talk) 01:31, 16 September 2009 (UTC) Keep Article is reliably sourced. The claim below that the source doesn't actually prove the existence of the organization is ludicrous. A classic case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT on the part of a well-known ultra-nationalist SPA. The fact that this is the 2nd nomination speaks volumes. --Athenean (talk) 05:17, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Thryduulf (talk) 22:19, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Greece-related deletion discussions. Thryduulf (talk) 22:19, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Care to point out Athenean where the source proves the existence? Care to cite the specific part? Otherwise the only ludicrous claim from a ultranationalist SPA here would be yours.--I Pakapshem (talk) 14:04, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Gregory R. Copley,THE ROAD TO PEACE IN THE BALKANS IS PAVED WITH BAD INTENTIONS,Washington, DC, June 27, 2007,"What we saw with the Bush visit to Tirana was the emergence of the Albanian thrust — supported by both the Government of Albania and the KLA — of an Albanian sponsored group, the UCC,4 seeking secession for part of Greece, Epirus, known historically also as Chameria. The Cham people draw, to some extent, their identity from a community formed in the Epirus area of Greece by the Roman Army some two millennia ago. The reality today, however, is that the Chameria Liberation Army — the UCC — was formed by the KLA and is in fact a part of the quest for a “Greater Albania”, and its proponents have said as much.A delegation of the UCC on June 10, 2007, delivered a letter to President Bush during his visit to Tirana. The UCC letter referred to the existence of an Albanian minority in Western Greece (Epirus) and the UCC requested recognition of the “genocide of the Albanian Chamerians” allegedly conducted by the Greeks in the end of World War II, and to recognize “the right of the people to return to their homes in Greece from where they were expelled”, and “return their estate that was attached”,plus other nationalist requests.And a few weeks before President Bush’s arrival in Albania, UCC delegations delivered letters to the US embassies in Rome and Tirana. Albanian nationalist sentiment and protests increased, along with strong propaganda against the Greek minority in southern Albania, after the Bush visit to Tirana. The UCC, meanwhile, has been building its support base with demonstrations and events leading toward today — June 27, 2007 — the date that the Albanian Parliament in 1994 called the “Chameria national anniversary”. The presence of President Bush in Albania, then, and his statements supporting the independence of Kosovo, encouraged and triggered the extreme feelings of nationalist Albanians, who are also seeking independence in western FYROM, and the Greek region of Epirus. Indeed, the Albanian people have for decades, but increasingly in the past 15 or so years, been so distracted by leaders who have promised that they could, and should, have some of their neighbors’ wealth, that they have allowed those leaders to fail them in actually creating wealth and strength in Albania itself."

Your citation of Copley. Nowhere does he prove the existence of the UCC.

Other qoutes from Copley:


 * "As a result, not only Kosovo, but all of Albania and other Balkan communities have become captive of the criminal-political movements which owe their power to their alliance with al-Qaida, Iran, and the Saudi-funded Wahhabist movements."
 * "The Kosovo region is now a lawless area. It has been ethnically-cleansed of Serbs (more than 300,000 in the past five years), and re-populated by Albanians who have progressively and illegally, over the past decades, migrated into the area."
 * "The visit to Tirana by US President Bush signaled the start of an open season of expanded Albanian-backed terrorist and political activities in the region..."
 * His second conclusion: "As a result of the encouragement given to the Albanian expansionist cause, there will be continued dynamism in Albanian separatist, terrorist, and agitation movements throughout the Balkans, and a renewed confidence and vitality to Albanian criminal activities in narco-trafficking, human trafficking, and illegal arms trade through Europe"

Does he seem reliable to you folks?--I Pakapshem (talk) 05:01, 16 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep. You see, reliable sources have been provided (and that was also the reason of the decision of the first nomination). It is indeed WP:IDONTLIKEIT.--Michael X the White (talk) 21:21, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Copley is definetly not reliable. Is the greek press reliable? I don't think so, not on this issue. And once again nowhere in any of the sources there is proof or confirmation of the actual existence of the organization. There are just arbitrary statements that make it seem as if the existence of such organization is common knowledge.--I Pakapshem (talk) 14:02, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.