Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Libertarian Movement (Italy)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep.   A rbitrarily 0   ( talk ) 13:42, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Libertarian Movement (Italy)

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Bootstrapping promotional article on an organization that fails WP:GNG & WP:ORG. Occasionally mentioned in passing in Italian media, but no significant coverage: I found nine relevant hits on Google News, but these were all one-line mentions in articles on broader subjects. The article references are somewhat misleading: many of those cited are simply articles devoted to topics the group is interested in and don't actually mention the group at all. In addition, the article was created and is principally maintained by an SPA with a conflict of interest, who appears to be using Wikipedia to promote the group and publish its manifesto. The Italian and French versions of the article, authored by the same editor, were deleted for the subject's lack of noteworthiness and the articles' promotional purpose. See also Conflict of interest/Noticeboard --RrburkeekrubrR 19:46, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Italy-related deletion discussions.  -- --RrburkeekrubrR 19:48, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions.  -- --RrburkeekrubrR 19:49, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep- I would say it passes the notability guidelines, I like editors with conflicts of interest, they are too much maligned, it,s only a guideline anyway, often they know a lot about the subject. It is clearly in need of a trim, but there is enough coverage and content to make a decent short article. When I googled the Italian name there were some decent looking articles in Italian Movimento Libertario Off2riorob (talk) 19:59, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment - I haven't decided whether or not this article warrants deletion yet. But I felt the need to comment on a couple of points made. The "it's only a guideline" argument doesn't hold much weight; even WP:N is "only a guideline" yet it is generally the metric we use to determine whether or not to keep an article. Conflicts of interest are often a very big problem for Wikipedia, and so need to be scrutinized. They are never reasons to delete an article, however; what matters is the article subject, not the author. As to the notability, "Movimento Libertario" is not a reliable source; it's a web site run by the movement itself. As mentioned in the deletion nomination, there must be significant coverage given in independent reliable sources to show notability. I still haven't decided whether the sources already cited in the article don't qualify; it's difficult because I have no proficiency in Italian and have to rely on spotty translation software. --  At am a  頭 20:09, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you missunderstood me, I said, when I googled Movimento Libertario I got what looked to me in italian quite a lot of coverage from independant sources, not from the movement itself, I have added for that purpose a search template in the italian wording to the top of the article. I have not at this time yet translated any of them. Off2riorob (talk) 20:14, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment Naturally I also googled the topic before nominating the article for deletion. What I can tell you is that while the sources initially looked promising (some are from La Repubblica or Il Giorno), when you look at the actual contents of the articles instead of just the headlines, it turns out the Movimento Libertario is typically given only a single brief mention in the context of a broader discussion: the articles aren't about the Movimento Libertario to any substantial degree; they just happen to mention it in passing. --RrburkeekrubrR 21:41, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Reply to Off2riorob - I did misunderstand you, sorry. "Movimento Libertario" is a web site that has articles on it, which I was reading earlier today with the help of Google Translate, adding further to my confusion. As Rrburke said, brief mentions don't do enough to establish notability, so those articles may still not be enough. --  At am a  頭 00:50, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I thought so, no worries, I missunderstand myself a lot. I will try to be clearer. Off2riorob (talk) 16:48, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment - Hi I am the creator of the ML page on Wikipedia, I have read that there is a debate on the English page of the ML for its deletion.

So I wanted to clarify some things that can be very useful for the discussion: 1) The italian page of Movimento Libertario has been canceled due to the injury of one who has proposed its deletion. ML Italian Page had all the requirements to be published, unfortunately L736E, has a different ideology opposite from the ML (and he doesn't know what is libertarianism and its principles), and he has repeatedly criticized and gave discredit to ML and libertarianism. Ask his opinion may be not useful for assess objectively the content of the page in relation to Wikipedia ENglish version. The italian discredit on ML has create a chain reaction also in the french version of Wikipedia page. 2) The English page of the ML on Wiki has references to major italian newspapers and national references (Corriere della Sera, Il Giornale, Il Piccolo, Avvenire), unfortunately, Il Giorno and La Repubblica do not cover our information because are center-left newspapers orientation not connected with libertarian ideology. 3) The presence in the national press is linked to ML activities of his members (like the ML coordinator Giorgio Fidenato), not focusing on the libertarian movement as a traditional political subject. As described on the page, it is not a party and do not participate in political elections but it respect the characteristics of the mainstream libertarianism. 4) The nickname Lib3rtarian it not mean that I am a ML supporter, I have used the name for the password only in reference to the page content, it is not a declaration of intent. 5) The English page ML on Wikipedia it was several times improved, even following the directions of other users, I have tried with others to reduce and lighten the page where this was possible. 6) The ML page in English on Wiki does not want to have promotional purpose because it does not participate in elections either by statute. It wants to draw as in the case of other wiki pages of parties or movements libertarians basic points of movement. 7) The article on the website of the libertarian movement is an notice to ML in relation to the objection of the italian page of Wikipedia, where it was noted,many other cases (outside the case ML) of censorship violations and discriminatory and subjective analize of the page. Bye. Lib3rtarian (talk) 05:11, 11 February 2010 (UTC)Lib3rtarian
 * Comment - If there is indeed significant coverage of the group in the papers you mention, please add the relevant references to the article to minimize the likelihood of its deletion. The article's current references fall into three groups:


 * Those from the group's own website or some affiliated person or organization
 * Those that do not mention the group by name at all
 * Those that mention the group only in passing


 * If there are better sources than this, it is a mystery to me why they are not included in the article in place of these. At any rate, it should be a simple enough matter to produce them and add them to the article.  I have made a renewed search since your post here of the online archives of the specific papers you mentioned and, again, could not find anything that rises beyond trivial coverage:


 * In Il Giornale, the organization was mentioned in passing in two short articles on broader subjects.
 * In Corriere della Sera, that number was one -- and the "coverage" amounted to a brief mention.
 * Il Piccolo had two articles that mentioned the group, but devoted no space to it beyond these mere mentions.
 * Avvenire had no articles that mentioned the group.
 * Other references to the "movimento libertario" (uncapitalized) appeared to be about libertarianism more generally and seemed not to have anything to do with the group as such.


 * If this group has in fact received "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject," where is it?


 * As for the question of conflict of interest, I raise it not because of your username, but because you write for the organization's website: in this article on the group's website, you state that the leader of the movement "thanked you personally" for your efforts, as he put it, to disseminate and distribute the brand, website and ideas of the movement ("Ogni occasione di divulgazione e diffusione di marchio, sito, idee e Movimento è assai gradita"). Evidently he regards the purpose of the Wikipedia articles you authored as promotional. Do you disagree?


 * Finally, your claims that the versions of the article on Italian and French Wikipedia were deleted for political motives and that their deletion constituted censorship are inaccurate, self-serving and disingenuous: in each case the article was deleted because there was no evidence that the organization was sufficiently noteworthy to merit a standalone article. As with this article, neither of those articles would have existed but for the work of an editor who wished to use Wikipedia to promote the organization that was their subject.  Here are links to the relevant deletion discussions so that editors can consult them for themselves:


 * it:Wikipedia:Pagine_da_cancellare/Movimento_Libertario
 * fr:Discussion:Mouvement_libertarien_(Italie)/Suppression


 * --RrburkeekrubrR 16:34, 11 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep - This nomination is another example of wikicommunism. WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not a reason for deletion which I smell is the motivation behind this nom masquerading as notability violation. Significant movement with enough coverage in reliable sources to establish notability. Defender of torch (talk) 12:05, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment - Please point to the part in the nomination that bears even the faintest resemblance to WP:IDONTLIKEIT. And if you see evidence of significant coverage in reliable sources, please consider adding references to the article as an alternative to ignorantly impugning the motives of other editors.  Incidentally, if you skip a few lines above WP:IDONTLIKEIT, you'll find another entry entitled WP:ILIKEIT. --RrburkeekrubrR 16:34, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * - Someone needs to take the bull by the horns and go delete all the uncited content and then we can see what is left that is worth keeping. Off2riorob (talk) 16:43, 11 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment I tried to clean up and rearrange this article at one point, agree it could use more sources. Also is there perhaps there is another wiki page the information can be summarized and moved into so that it is part of an article but not an article unto itself? It does to me seem to establish notability, just could use a lot of editing. tempo libero 23:10, 11 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tempo libero (talk • contribs)

Moreover, the Italian press is traditionally reluctant to talk about topics libertarianism and antistate vision in our country, the same applies in relation to the activities of our movement. However, it was the case of a cancellation on Wikipedia Italy which has created problems in relation to proceedings on French Wikipedia. Obviously, if Wikipedia Italian cancel for assessment subjective reasons the policy page (and not on the shape and style of the editorial page), what can I do?. The contents of these ML, a voice is to give information, not a categorical imperative to share. ML is not a political party but a movement and a cultural association, is logical that it doesn't have much visibility but it is present throughout Italy. It would however be the case for determining the content, and since I have written a page based on the Libertarian party U.S. on Wiki english model; I don't think to have created a promotional page. Course in the coming days I will insert links to other online newspapers where Italians mention the libertarian movement and activities of its members more representative. Obviously, the activities reported (for example the battle Futuragra GMOs) are carried out by members of the ML, because the association is made up of many ML supporters. As regards the response of Leonardo Facco on the promotional page of Wikipedia, not up to me, since this is his personal free opinion I must not necessarily agree with him.... Bye Lib3rtarian (talk) 02:30, 12 February 2010 (UTC)Lib3rtarian
 * Comment - Hi, the ML is a movement against italian statism and not tied to political elections, our coverage in the press is only closely tied to our cultural and civil rights battle.

Lib3rtarian (talk) 05:03, 12 February 2010 (UTC)Lib3rtarian
 * Comment - I have added some articles that I have found in online newspapers (there are also La Repubblica and Il Giorno), I hope that are sufficient to avoid cancellation of the page. Bye.

This page don't want be a promotional page!!!. I have added all the information required (there are more information and links than the others Wiki page that describe others libertarian subjects!). Please don't delete the page!!!. Bye. Lib3rtarian (talk) 22:37, 12 February 2010 (UTC)Lib3rtarian
 * Comment - I have increased the number of articles (from national and local online newspapers) that talks about the ML. I hope that these new materials can save the ML page and change the bad opinion about the ML.

I think this page has to exist. It's very rich of informations and I never understand because it was deleted from IT-Wiki. Maybe it could be less long, some paragraphs could be avoided. Libertarian Movement is a little movement in Italy at this moment if you speak about absolute terms, sure, but it's the biggest movement supporting libertarian ideas ever created in Italy. And Libertarian is a very important political philosophy, there's no doubt about there. Mainly for this reason that page is necessary to wikipedia.94.161.221.196 (talk) 22:58, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment - The issue is the noteworthiness of the organization called the Movimento Libertario, not of libertarianism more broadly. That the organization is, as you put it, "a little movement in Italy at this moment," is precisely the problem: if it were a more noteworthy organization, it would have received "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject," a principal measure of notability. Trying to piggyback on the notoriety of Wikipedia for the purpose of enhancing an non-notable organization's public profile is an abuse of Wikipedia. --RrburkeekrubrR 01:09, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Have you read the content of this page in particular, (beyond the written notes on others pages incomplete in French and Italian Wikipedia version, that are not relevant for this case)?. I do not understand what you expect from a political movement that has no electoral purposes without considering it as merely promotional!!. I have reported (and as testimony of my good faith) the actual reality of the ML in the italian press (even by leftist journals!). Quantify things in the culture is not a helpful behavior, and neither judge with personal opinions. I've shown you that the creation and implementation efforts of the page as this is not a promotional page, such as the ML is a present reality and activities throughout Italy reported by various newspapers. I also reiterated the fact of writing a page on ML does not mean necessarily be its members or to communicate unverifiable information. Do you want you write a page on an Italian movement of libertarianism?. I have shown how there are the references and how I have express the content in Wiki page with verifiable sources. But for you nothing is good anyway! Obviously you have some prejudices that have nothing to do with the regulation name. Do you think more about what you said L736E (a fascist as shown on the network) that the information of prominent newspapers?. All the information are there, the references too, and it is obviously that all libertarian political parties and movements in the world is not in power and do not have broad support at the polls nor the U.S. nor in Canada, nor in Italy (especially since ML don't participate in elections by the Statute). Do you want delete all libertarian political parties and movement from Wiki page!?!. I therefore think that you are looking for excuses to delete it perhaps ill-advised by some Italian censor. Sorry but if you don't realize the information in references, it is natural think that there is your bad conscious on the ML page. Lib3rtarian (talk) 04:19, 15 February 2010 (UTC)Lib3rtarian
 * Keep - Rrburke, sorry but have you read all the links article reported?, Have You read the papers that write the ML?, Have You read the interviews and references?.
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.