Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Linda Wenzel


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep.

There seems to be little disagreement she has been the subject of a lot of coverage, not solely by "tabloids". The only major question is whether WP:BLP mandates deletion, especially WP:BLP1E. On the question of BLP in general, especially since she is a minor, there seems to be consensus that the subject is worthy of inclusion and that BLP concerns can be - and mostly have been - fixed by editing and adding better sources.

As for BLP1E, the key is the "E", i.e. "event". The policy does not further elaborate what a "single event" is but defining her being radicalized, joining ISIS and being captured as a single event stretches the word "event" too far. This coincides with the times coverage happened. As Icewhiz pointed out, the first burst of coverage was in 2016. Then there was coverage beginning in July of this year, indicating that reliable sources see these occurences as separate events and per WP:V, this is what should guide the classification. So BLP1E was not a valid reason for deletion. On a side note, BLP1E also requires the person in question to otherwise "likely to remain a low-profile individual" which, as has been pointed out by Icewhiz, is not the case here since - WP:CRYSTAL nonewithstanding - we can actually predict that whatever decision will be made, it will be reported (again, WP:BLP1E requires us to speculate about future events in this case).

As for other deletion arguments, neither WP:SOLDIER nor WP:CRIMINAL need to be met if WP:BASIC or WP:GNG are which is consensus here.

 So Why  10:25, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Linda Wenzel

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Unclear what notability there is for her as an individual. All sources are topically trivial and based on a single occurrence. ‡ Єl Cid of ᐺalencia ᐐT₳LKᐬ  22:23, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete. I think WP:BLP1E is relevant here, she is notable only in passing (at least at present) and everything relevant about her is already included at Islam in Germany. This article was originally boldly redirected to Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant by El cid, el campeador, but I unredirected it as she is not mentioned at all there. I intended to nominate it for AfD after doing the BLP tagging, etc, but was beaten to it. Thryduulf (talk) 22:30, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions. Thryduulf (talk) 22:34, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Iraq-related deletion discussions. Thryduulf (talk) 22:34, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Terrorism-related deletion discussions. Thryduulf (talk) 22:34, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Thryduulf (talk) 22:34, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. ʍaɦʋɛօtʍ (talk) 22:47, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Syria-related deletion discussions. ʍaɦʋɛօtʍ (talk) 22:47, 18 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Delete -- WP:TOOSOON & WP:BLP1E, plus general BLP concerns with the subject being a minor. Wikipedia is not a newspaper, let alone a tabloid. K.e.coffman (talk) 22:48, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Keep. Coverage started in 2016 - when she traveled to the Islamic State via Turkey. She has since apparently also participated in the conflict, and is now facing serious charges which may lead to the death penalty - which would be notably be applied to a post-WW2 German. This has become a diplomatic issue between Iraq and Germany - and is not going away. This is beyond BPL1E - as she is notable both for her online recruitment and conversion to Isalm which lead to travel to the Islamic state, her subsequent activities as an Islamic state adherent, and now the criminal case and diplomacy surrounding her. A redirect to Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant would be grossly out of line - and would conflate a willing adherent facing serious charges with actual victims in Iraq (e.g. Yazidi women whose families' were butchered, while they were "spared" as prizes to be passed between IS fighters as chattel)Icewhiz (talk) 06:41, 19 September 2017 (UTC) In terms of policy, she clearly passes WP:GNG and WP:CRIME, particularly (2) The motivation for the crime or the execution of the crime is unusual—or has otherwise been considered noteworthy—such that it is a well-documented historic event.. Coverage of this individual is enough for notability as is, and is expected to continue.Icewhiz (talk) 06:48, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Keep. I was interested to know about her family and know if she had a conflict in her teenage life . Wikipedia was the best source gathering all info in one place .The article is useful !--Alborz Fallah (talk) 16:24, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
 * you have been a user for 10 years and I am sure you are familiar with WP:ATA, more specifically WP:ITSUSEFUL. Could you provide a reason to ignore the BLP concerns and the tabloid media coverage? Remember Wikipedia is not a newspaper.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 16:46, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Prior to her capture, serious criminal charges, and becoming a diplomatic chip it was tabloidy coverage (of the ISIS runaway bride). Since her capture, this is being covered in ALL the international news sources and she is being named in all of them. There is no doubt coverage will remain at this level, and she already passes GNG regardless. Her conviction in the Iraqi court is a certainity, the only question is snetencing.Icewhiz (talk) 17:37, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Icewhiz I'm sorry but I'm not interested in your WP:CRYSTALBALLy assertions: "There is no doubt...", according to who? You? Incidents and events are regularly covered in 109 newspapers for some time. Without historical or lasting significance, it's just a (tragic) news story.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 22:26, 19 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Keep The coverage in reliable sources demonstrate she easily meets WP:GNG. Also meets WP:CRIMINAL. Seems to also be a case of WP:GEOBIAS as Americans who became involved in Islamist extremism such as Douglas McCain, Moner Mohammad Abu Salha and Troy Kastigar have had long-standing articles. AusLondonder (talk) 19:14, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I feel it would be disruptive for me to nominate those pages for deletion now, but I don't see how any of those individuals are notable. power~enwiki ( π, ν ) 02:22, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete Seems to be the type of situation that WP:BLP1E was written for. Teens becomes radicalized and join the jihad every day, but it only breaks the surface of the media cycle when a white and/or Western teen does it. This is an otherwise unknown person, a minor, and is only in the news for one topic. ValarianB (talk) 19:32, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Bobherry Userspace  Talk to me!   Stuff I have done  20:46, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Keep I created the page, and accepted it's delation up front originally. Though after taking another look at it, it is important to note that she has been consistently covered in credible newspapers, and there is a large amount of information available on her life through articles. It is also important in geopolitical context between German-Iraqi relations.ShimonChai (talk) 01:13, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete she's a 16 year old. She's only "notable" as the result of tabloid-style coverage.  She doesn't meet WP:SOLDIER or anything like that. As far as WP:CRIMINAL, I don't think anything here is historically unusual. power~enwiki ( π,  ν ) 02:22, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete - Per my points above. Tabloid media coverage and reports WP:ROUTINEly keeping up with the girl is not an indication of notability: Wikipedia is not a newspaper. Some editors may choose to not enforce the NOTNEWS policy this subject falls under; I get it, it's fun to play "journalist" for a little. However, we cannot tolerate the WP:BLP issues or the failure to meet WP:NCRIME.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 02:38, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Weak keep - Tremendous BLP violations but, hey, it does not seem to bother those who want to keep the article. After reading this, I believe there is at least more significance here than the countless articles on minor terrorist attacks that receive a wave of news for a week.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 21:59, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
 * You and I are generally in agreement. If Ms. Menzel had been the one stabbing the Israeli grocer in the 2017 Yavneh attack, and the German government was trying to get her back, I'd have voted keep there also. The international scope makes this more significant. TimTempleton (talk)  (cont)  00:34, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Comment, is there a wikisavvy editor who can inform this discussion of the statistics for readers looking at this page? if this page is deleted it looks like a candidate for a redirect to a page that lists/discusses isis recruits from europe. Coolabahapple (talk) 05:00, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
 * In the period from creation on 18 August to 17 September (the day before it was nominated here) it was viewed 404 times. So yes, a redirect would certainly be appropriate if she is mentioned anywhere suitable. For most of existence it has been a redirect to Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant but she is not mentioned there (which is why I unredirected it) and Icewizz above notes that this target is inappropriate for other reasons too. Thryduulf (talk) 09:19, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Keep as her conviction is most likely and this will continue to generate more coverage. I disagree that she is notable for single event. She is notable convert who joined Islamic State and therefore should be kept. This was covered a year ago in different reliable sources including in German media like RTL and others here.  Greenbörg  (talk)  15:18, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment - Multiple users are commenting on tabloid coverage - however besides the face they contribute to notability - this is no longer the case - the article, which is well sourced, is not sourced from tabloids ( there is still one in there - when I get back from vacation - I intend to replace/remove it - it isn't needed for anything ). Since being captured and becoming a diplomatic bargaining chip - at the head of state level (or at least Iraqi head of state) - this is covered by the premier newspapers. Prior to July this year - creation was indeed unwarranted as she was both BPL1E (known for her conversion to IS) and with loads of tabloid coverage (and a little non-tabloid). Since July - the situation has changed markedly. Yes, there are multiple daily mail pieces out there on her (also post July).... But these is also coverage, multiple pieces in different dates in multiple different newspapers covering at least 4 distinct developments of this case. Note she is no longer "just" a runaway bride, but is known to have been part of IS's apparatus (morality brigade) and is now also charged with terrorism/murder (for admitting to being a sniper and killing Iraqi soldiers) - and faces the death penalty - though based on the high talk, I would assume this would averted (to a jail sentence). Executed / Jailed / Released - all would generate more major coverage.Icewhiz (talk) 19:31, 20 September 2017 (UTC) Not back from vacation, but did strike out questionable sources that were reffed - they weren't actually supporting the article (as each bit they supported was reffed from a much better source). Added some Wapo/NYT. Just because tabloids covered something - does not mean that non-tabloid coverage is not there - in this case - it is strongly there from July onward (a bit in 2016 too - but that wouldn't have gotten her over the notability cliff).Icewhiz (talk) 22:01, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Keep, one of the more notable connections of ISIS to Germany. Certainly seems more important than Articles for deletion/2016 Hanover stabbing, which was almost unanimously kept. —Kusma (t·c) 08:26, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
 * WP:WHATABOUTX, the article should be looked at alone, not compared to others. Ifnord (talk) 18:11, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I am mentioning that other AFD because it came to the wrong conclusion and I couldn't resist bringing it up again. On the general point: while we don't compare articles at AFD, we do use previous AFD outcomes to eventually write notability guidelines, which in turn are used to argue at AFD. —Kusma (t·c) 18:54, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Keep As User:Icewhiz says, WP:SIGCOV in a wide range of WP:RS media is now more than sufficient to establish notbility.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:11, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Keep based on the variety of international coverage, and the unique aspect of this being a young German, formerly Christian woman who has reportedly killed people as a sniper, after being radicalized, and is now the subject of diplomatic interest. TimTempleton <sup style="color:#800080">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  17:58, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
 * keep GNG> What are we gonna do? wait 5 years for her to be shot before she gets an article? L3X1 (distænt write)  02:33, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.