Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lionheart (band)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. with no prejudice against a merge discussion continuing on its talkpage J04n(talk page) 00:24, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Lionheart (band)

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Maybe it's because the band died out almost thirty years ago, maybe it's because there is apparently another Lionheart in existence, but I can't find anything that remotely resembles in-depth coverage in reliable sources. The page has been unreferenced since at least 2010, and there's nothing in the body of the text to indicate they "made it big" as it were (even the text itself says as much). Primefac (talk) 17:06, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. GSS  (talk) 11:58, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. GSS  (talk) 11:58, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Keep or merge to Dennis Stratton. Two major/signficant indie albums technically satisfies WP:NMUSIC, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of coverage around. Sources do exist, however, e.g., and (see also the bio at Allmusic). The entry in The Encyclopedia of Popular Music is certainly significant. If more coverage could be found I would favour keeping. --Michig (talk) 17:06, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Weak delete, but if more coverage is found I wouldn't object to it being kept. As it stands it reads like they're a typical band that was signed by a major but then flopped, and most of their notability seems to come from the wealth of bands their members either came from or went on to play in later. There's a degree of WP:NOTINHERITED and I'm not convinced that Lionheart are notable as a standalone band. We do sometimes have a habit of deciding that any 20th century band there's surviving evidence of is notable, which shouldn't really be the case. KaisaL (talk) 12:37, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 01:40, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep as passes WP:NMUSIC as two significant notable albums, also book coverage and allmusic bio- most bands in wikipedia don't have one Atlantic306 (talk) 02:31, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
 * , you make some interesting claims. What's the book? Also, if the albums are significant and notable, why can I not find any coverage of them (and better yet, why does the Unearthed album not seem to exist for sale)? Primefac (talk) 15:49, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Was referring to the Encyclopedia of Popular Music entry mentioned earlier, a number of their albums are for sale on Amazon, there is one copy of Unearthed for sale on Amazon.com but for some reason it does seem rare unlike their other output Atlantic306 (talk) 22:20, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Atlantic306, are you saying that most bands in Wikipedia do not have an allmusic bio? Because, if that's what you're saying, I'd be willing to dispute it. Allmusic is pretty comprehensive and, among other things, an allmusic bio is not sufficient for notability because it attempts to cover ALL MUSIC. But more importantly, the reliable sources notice board has stated that allmusic is not a reliable source, except it can be used for some facts when no other sources are available. Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_30 LaMona (talk) 03:31, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
 * No, Allmusic biographies and reviews are very reliable sources as  pointed out at the link you provided, this list of Wikiproject Album Reliable sources here  nearer the top of the page, they certaintly don't give reviews and bios to the majority of entries. The reliable sources board advice is that plain listings on allmusic are not a sign of notability but reviews and bios are, if you disagree ask the experienced members of WikiProject Albums ,they all use allmusic for references, someone like  or Michig can confirm this. When I said the majority of wikipedia articles I meant new pages where the large majority don't have allmusic bios and reviews and are mainly non-notable. Atlantic306 (talk) 04:25, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Not to nitpick,, but just because Allmusic isn't on the "unreliable sources" list doesn't mean it's a "very reliable" source. It just means that it can be used. In fact, a lot of the examples given at the WikiProject make it seem like AllMusic is a minefield that has to be very carefully sifted through for good information. Primefac (talk) 04:35, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Please look further up the page I linked to here its included in the list of reliable sources which is considered very reliable. Atlantic306 (talk) 04:40, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
 * This is really odd. You are pointing to a section called "Sources to avoid" that says: "Track listings, release dates, record label, album covers and track lengths can all be found at AllMusic." It says nothing about bios. And the row in the list says: "Do not indicate the "Album Pick" designation, do not use genre sidebar, do not include reviews that include only a star review and no text review." So there are caveats, it's not the black and white that you are claiming. And it says nothing about notability - it is a statement about whether it is a reliable source for facts (e.g. facts in the bio or album info). Reliability as a source and notability are two entirely different things. You were using Allmusic as a statement about notability. I don't think it can be used that way. LaMona (talk) 15:55, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Comment - Since I was pinged, and the conversation is kind of veering off, I clear things up. The consensus is that AllMusic is a reliable source, and is a source that can be used to prove notability. The only restrictions on it are that you can't use its side boxes/infoboxes for things like sourcing genre. Just stay away from their version of infoboxes, and stick to the prose, and you're good. Beyond clearing up that point of contention, I don't have a stance on this article's notability yet. Sergecross73   msg me  02:15, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spirit of Eagle (talk) 02:27, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
 * User:Sergecross73, I'm curious as to what aspects of Allmusic support notability. I have been told (and it made sense to me) that having an entry in All music is kind of like having a Forbes business profile: it's a directory of ALL and so being included isn't itself notable. Or are you saying that Allmusic is selective? LaMona (talk) 04:28, 13 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Conceptually: In a general sense, database entries are often not considered significant coverage because they offer little to no prose. That's not the case with most AllMusic articles though - most have significant content to them. For example, consider a typical database entry like this, and compare it to the AllMusic coverage on the same band, here. Very different. Also note that, while their coverage is far reaching, not all artists have entries. Many look like this or this, which of course would not be helpful it meeting the GNG. So, yes, you need to be selective with it, but the Lionheart one seems to be of moderate detail at least.
 * Consensus/precedent-wise: I see AllMusic used to save articles from deletion all the time at AFD, and if there were any consensus to ignore it, I'm certain it'd be present at WP:MUSIC/SOURCES. Sergecross73   msg me  13:04, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete and then Redirect as I would've also been satisfied with simply redirecting, but I certainly still notice there's simply not enough substance for this separate article yet, and thus I note I'm not convinced by the 1 Keep vote. Therefore, with nothing to suggest this can be amply improved, we can't keep it. SwisterTwister   talk  04:16, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Merge/Redirect over to Dennis Stratton given that the group was basically 'his project' and its history is basically an outgrowth of his own efforts to get his sound out there. Sourcing for what's here right now is weak but not non-existent. I really would prefer not to retain the article, however, as it is. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 10:15, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep, oppose merge. The band received an encyclopedia entry in Colin Larkin's Encyclopedia of Popular Music. The Guinness Encyclopedia of Popular Music: Lincoln, Abe-Primettes: "Lionheart Formed in 1980 by Dennis Stratton (guitar) on his exit from Iron Maiden. He was joined in this crusade by vocalist Jess Cox (Tygers Of Pan Tang), Frank Noon (Next Band/Def Leppard) on drums, Steve Mann (Liar) on guitar and Rocky Newton (Wildfire) on bass. They made their highly impressive debut one Saturday night at the Marquee, London, but suffered from bad press thanks to criticism of Cox. This led to the cancellation of the next two appearances and saw Cox replaced by Reuben Archer (Lautrec). Noon quit in 1981 to join Pan! Di'Anno's band before setting off for Waysted. The nucleus of Stratton, Mann and Newton continued with various line-ups that included drummers Les Binks (Judas Priest) and Clive Edwards (Grand Prix). In 1982 they signed to Heavy Metal Records but managed to release only one track, on the Heavy Metal Heroes Vol. 2 compilation. That track, 'Lionheart', remains the only representative recording of their early sound, as they later changed their style significantly. With the addition of Chad Brown on vocals and session drummer Robert Jenkins, they went on to record an album with producer Kevin Beamish REO Speedwagonj. This was a slick, Americanized effort which failed to capture the old fans' interest or that of their target audience in the USA. In 1985 they continued with drummer Andy Bierne and Phil Lanzon (keyboards), who had been playing with re-formed glam rockers Sweet. After a while, Lanzon also left and was replaced by Steve Mann from Stratus and new vocalist Keith Murrell. They split up finally in 1986, with Bierne going into management, Murrell to Mama's Boys and Newton and Mann joining MSG. Stratton later found fame in Japan as part of the British All Stars/Praying Mantis line-up which featured a number of ex-N.W.O.B.H.M. musicians." The encyclopedia entry verifies that Lionheart has received significant coverage in other publications. ("They made their highly impressive debut one Saturday night at the Marquee, London, but suffered from bad press thanks to criticism of Cox.") There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Lionheart to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 06:10, 27 July 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.