Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lisa Lavie (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was DELETE.  Spinning Spark  16:11, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Lisa Lavie
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Once all of the dubious sourcing is removed, the notability is not sufficient for an article. little green rosetta $central scrutinizer (talk)$ 13:25, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete Noting that the first AfD was unanimously for "delete" and that the BLP was recreated in 2009 without any actual notability still. Sourcing is primarily youTube (self-published) and Bloginity (which is a blog when all is said and done). Collect (talk) 13:32, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
 * While unanimous it was hardly resounding with only three participants. AIR corn (talk) 14:12, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Observation: Most notability-bestowing events began a few weeks after the Oct. 2007 AfD (see 19:42, 22 March 2013 MUSICBIO Explanation below). RCraig09 (talk) 17:30, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Quebec-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:02, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:02, 22 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment Hidden within the youtube clips there are a few sources that may attest to her notability.. There may be more, but there are far too many bad sources diluting them so I looked through google news instead and found . At the moment I am leaning towards keep, but if someone can provide a few more that would help. Either way it needs a lot of work (the interviews and reviews from you tube users need to be removed at the very least). AIR corn  (talk) 14:12, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Speedy Keep Subject meets WP:MUSBIO §§ 1, 4, 6, 9, 12.  Some facts: Sourcing includes multiple CNN cites, ABC News, Messager LaSalle, BMI Music World, Hollywood Records, Allmusic, Entertainment Tonight Canada, eTalk, Fox News, Seattle Times, Houston Chronicle, Tampa Bay Informer, Gant Daily, USA Today, Gulf Times, etc. YouTube is repeatedly cited for objective statistics for historical perspective (not "self-published"); or, sometimes, by videos not published by subject herself, to prove a non-controversial factual statement being made: WP:RS states sources should be reliable for the statement being made.  This comment is by article's main contributor RCraig09 (talk) 14:13, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The problem you have is that potentially good sources are being lost among all the you tube clips. If you wish to save this article you will need to present links here to some substantial coverage in reliable sources. At the end of the day this will live or die according to general notability. Sources along the line of the montreal express I found above. It is not enough to say that they exist, you need to give participants here something to look at so they can judge the coverage for themselves. AIR corn (talk) 21:50, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks; I've added Summary Comments below. RCraig09 (talk) 14:36, 24 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep - ...if the fluff and peacock can be pared back .... the Jarboe/Ryder 2009 book mention, plus on the soundtrack albums of two 2006 motion pictures Stick It starring Jeff Bridges (Lavie's original song "If I Only Knew") and The Guardian starring Kevin Costner and Ashton Kutcher (Lavie's version of "Mockingbird").[11][12], ...do this get a Wikipedia bio. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:18, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete And userify to the author's userspace for later inclusion. WP:TOOSOON in my opinion. I disagree that the subject meets WP:MUSICBIO in any way. What coverage there is seems trivial, aggregate or secondary of the subject herself, so no #1. Being a backup singer to Yanni does not meet #4 or #6. #9 is not met either because YouTube is not a music competition. #12 is not met because whatever coverage there was was in aggregate to the video that she appeared in, not for herself. Artist has not charted, and has not released a record through a major label. iTunes doesn't count. The Streamy Awards is mentioned, but obviously she didn't receive one, she was a backup singer for another artist that also didn't receive the award, she just performed. All in all, the article is probably 90% puffery and excessive referencing. The 10% that's left at the end doesn't really qualify for WP:GNG at this point. If the article is removed and userified, and at some point in the future the subject meets the notability guidelines, I'd recommend the author be a lot more honest about how the bio is structured and sourced. Someone who is truly notable hardly requires that level of reference overload. § FreeRangeFrog croak 17:38, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Explanation: Meets WP:MUSBIO because ... I can see how someone without knowledge of the subject's history might say those things, FreeRangeFrog. But I was saying the article meets meets WP:MUSBIO for the following reasons: RCraig09 (talk) 19:42, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
 * § 1: Sourcing includes those listed above, after "Some facts:" -- The most pertinent sources that focus on subject herself include Entertainment Tonight Canada and eTalk (Canadian national television). USA Today said she's the "visionary" behind the "phenom" YouTube video--not just a singer in it. I'm not relying on Streamys performance.
 * § 4/6: Subject is a lead vocalist for Yanni--she's not a 'backup singer.' Worldwide Yanni tours with singers are significant, especially since Yanni is traditionally an instrumentalist.
 * § 9: The "major competition" was being a finalist in the 2007 YouTube Awards (musician category) -- the largest video upload website on the planet with millions of music videos uploaded each year.  It was a formal competition.
 * § 12: Broadcast segments include ET Canada and eTalk (2007), mentioned three paragraphs earlier. Further, the CNN and ABC News segments (2010), though about the We Are the World remake video, highlighted her as the sole mastermind, organizer, and co-editor of the video -- not just one of 57 singers.
 * I would have preferred fewer and simpler references myself, but FYI: many were added or bulked up to appease a deletionist in 2010. Some referencing is factual referencing to YouTube statistics for historical context, not for "puffery." Also, some (not accusing you) confuse notability with level of fame.  I plan to trim less important content and references (schedule permitting: early April 2013) but I strongly assert WP:TOOSOON was outgrown in October 2007.  RCraig09 (talk) 19:42, 22 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The problem is most (all?) of these criteria require the coverage to be non-trivial.  little green rosetta $central scrutinizer (talk)$ 15:27, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete — I agree with the nominator. WP:42 isn't met because the most reliable sources give insubstantial coverage, and the dubious/bloggy/exceedingly local ones give the most substantial coverage. Articles on living persons simply require more solid sourcing, and claims that any accomplishment is encyclopedically or biographically significant need the same. Yanni doesn't help this subject WP:INHERIT anything without a durable (cf. occasional) ensemble membership, and being broadcast on TV in and of itself isn't necessarily worth mentioning, especially if the subject is otherwise obviously notable. JFHJr (㊟) 17:25, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Observation. Subject has been one of two lead singers on all Yanni tours since autumn 2010, though there are of course gaps between tours. RCraig09 (talk) 14:36, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

(2) Article presents detailed factual biography of one of the earliest subjects to successfully use the Internet outside old-line music labels, a detailed task for which numerous references were necessary over four years--not to demonstrate threshold notability, nor for WP:Bombardment. (3) Re: YouTube: (3a) Please guard against dismissing anything YouTube-related based on underlying improper WP:OTHERCRAP-like assumptions; (3b) the article's YouTube cites are generally (i) permissible primary-source uses of archives of subject's channel or YouTube front page to put subject's YouTube channel statistics in historical perspective and for front page features; (ii) some "official" YouTube channels' videos; (iii) to WP:verify bare facts such as particular performances--not as opinionated reviews; and (iv) a couple of subject interviews, openly labeled as such, not cited for truth of their content. RCraig09 (talk) 14:36, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete per the nominator's and FRF's convinving arguments. Create a redirect to We Are the World 25 for Haiti (YouTube edition) - whatever legitimate notability the subject may have is BLP1E-ish, and stems from her involvement in this video; while I'd usually suggest a merge, the content here simply isn't suitable for excerpting a brief, relevant bio, which needs to be redone from scratch. Userfy on request, but the primary author really needs to understand WP:BOMBARD's lessons before attempting a rewrite. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 18:48, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Summary comments from article's main contributor. (1) Lead has been updated here to summarize notability.
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.