Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of American death metal bands


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: Keep, consensus that the nomination has no merit. - Mike Rosoft (talk) 21:16, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
 * No judgement from me on the inclusion or removal of individual entries, which can be resolved on the article talk page. - Mike Rosoft (talk) 21:18, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

List of American death metal bands

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

WP:CONTENTFORK and overlaps with List of death metal bands. Categorization of politics is irrelevant to music and even if necessary a stand alone list/article is not necessary. Formatting of the broader article is all that is needed. American death metal is also not a genre. Curb Chain (talk) 01:03, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:29, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:29, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:29, 4 June 2013 (UTC)


 * "Politics"? This is obviously a sublist by nationality, which is a rather obvious way to subdivide any group of people. As for your second curious statement, the list's basis is that the death metal band is American, not that these bands play "American death metal", as should be obvious from Category:Death metal musical groups by nationality being the parent category of Category:American death metal musical groups (if not the article itself, which explains in the intro that it's for bands from the USA). Of course it overlaps with List of death metal bands, but it's not just a duplicate, as that link is just a set index as the list of all death metal bands worldwide is so long it's been subdivided into two separate lists. postdlf (talk) 01:36, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
 * But it still violates WP:CONTENTFORK as the information is more clearer, and most importantly, useful, on merged with that page, if needed.Curb Chain (talk) 03:34, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Please elaborate, and on which "page" do you mean? As I already pointed out, there is no one single page. postdlf (talk) 03:48, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Both pages.Curb Chain (talk) 05:26, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
 * ...and why shouldn't we also have sublists divided by nationality, just like we categorize them? How is it "more clear and useful" to only have all death metal bands the whole world over lumped together, in an alphabetized list so massive it had to be split in two? That's what I hoped you would "elaborate" on. postdlf (talk) 05:40, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Per WP:LISTN, it is not notable.Curb Chain (talk) 07:30, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * It's a bit obnoxious to keep flitting to another, new rationale every time the one you had just posted gets challenged, instead of actually responding to the questions posed. Am I to infer from this that you've abandoned all of your previous arguments? Even if it were plausible that American death metal music was not itself a notable topic, WP:LISTN isn't relevant here anyway, but instead WP:LISTPURP, as this is a completely ordinary navigational list of articles grouped by nationality. postdlf (talk) 15:22, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * So then every list of (insert genre here) artists should be forked into their respective polity? What about artists who come from several polities, or if they identify as from several polities?Curb Chain (talk) 06:58, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * To answer your question about sublists divided by nationality, there are cases where the individuals in music groups, and not individual artists, have citizenship different from one another. Such a list will would be pointless and selfcontradictory especially when sources are added.Curb Chain (talk) 07:18, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Curb Chain, please reread what I just said about flitting around to different arguments instead of actually responding to the comments others have just made. This is a poor way to conduct a discussion. On your belated return to your initial complaint about this list being subdivided by nationality, I'll only say that it's rather ridiculous to be challenging the very notion of identifying a band's nationality just because there might be a few more complicated cases involving band members of differing nationalities. That hardly invalidates the whole enterprise, and such classification is standard across band articles and categories: see Category:Musical groups by nationality and its 154 subcategories. There is nothing unique about the nationality of death metal bands that would apply to this list specifically. postdlf (talk) 20:05, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Categories are a wholly different mechanism that we do not deal with here. There nothing flitting with this rebuttal as much as your argument is offtopic to this discussion.Curb Chain (talk) 01:06, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
 * And to apply the category guidelines to this article which currently is very applicable as there is no action to provide references, WP:DEFINING specifically WP:OC, OC. WP:IINFO is the closest article protocol that is related to this (sort of) page.Curb Chain (talk) 01:35, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I mentioned the categories because determining a band's nationality is the same issue regardless of whether we do that for a list or for a category. It's the same assertion of fact, and the well-developed category structure centered on that fact shows we consider it a standard practice. I have little idea what your other comment is trying to say, not that it matters at this point, but I can tell you that in the category context, the nationality of a person or group of people, if determinable, is always considered defining, as evidenced by many years of CFDs on the issue. postdlf (talk) 16:53, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The purpose of lists over categories is that they can be sourced. Back to the argument of conflating politics, see the label "international" here.  Clearly there's no rules as to determine the political affiliation of an artist or band members in question so such a reliably sourced list is moot per WP:LISTN.  Unfortunately, we don't have people who work in this area commenting otherwise these ignorant and uninformed !keeps would not be derailing this AfD.Curb Chain (talk) 20:01, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

I suggest you post at WP:ANI, request closure of this AFD, reversion and maybe protection against Curb Chain's blanking, and a discussion of his disruption. How he's conducted himself in this discussion is bad enough, but to blank most of the list on a rationale that this AFD has rejected is beyond the pale. The "burden" claim is also nonsense given that he doesn't have a good faith doubt that these are actually death metal bands; he's just trying to "win" this AFD. postdlf (talk) 14:23, 12 June 2013 (UTC) 
 * Keep Perfectly valid list. All notable entries about a notable topic (WP:SALAT). The Swedish category could also become a list too, and the lists could be expanded into a table format.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 06:33, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
 * List of Swedish death metal bands actually links to a genre of music. This list does not.Curb Chain (talk) 07:30, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - The ironic thing here with this list (that's in question here at this AfD) is that it was apparently "created as a protest against" that very same list of Swedish metal bands in 2009...whatever that means. FYI, I've updated/corrected the list in question here. There's really nothing wrong with it, besides maybe it needing a few references. Not every band needs a reference though, since one can just click on the band's Wiki-link to see plenty of documentation on what kind of band they actually are. Guy1890 (talk) 20:04, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * No, list articles do need references because precisely that they have the advantage of allowing reference with our current technology.Curb Chain (talk) 06:49, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Is it wrong to provide references for every listing on a particular list? Surely not, but it's also not always required, especially when the list is of something as obvious as whether a death metal band was originally formed in the United States. Guy1890 (talk) 21:25, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * This article is neither an outline nor an index. Such, references are required.Curb Chain (talk) 01:13, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Confer what I said before: there is a CLEAR distinction between Swedish death metal and Swedish death metal. List of Nordic Countries death metal bands was renamed precisely for this reason.  I can't see how you can compare this list with that as this list violates WP:LISTN and WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS.Curb Chain (talk) 06:58, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Yea, Swedish death metal is a basically a sub-genre of death metal. This list in question here (a simple listing of death metal bands that were formed in the USA) violates absolutely nothing, period. This AfD is going nowhere. Guy1890 (talk) 21:25, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep Dividing things out by nationality, in addition to keeping a full agglomerated list is perfectly reasonable. For example, we have List of inventors, in addition to List of Swiss inventors and discoverers, List of German inventors and discoverers, etc.  It makes navigation easier, which is the entire point of lists.  Grandmartin11 (talk) 16:21, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
 * There are cases where the individuals in music groups, and not individual artists, have citizenship different from one another. Such a list will would be pointless and selfcontradictory especially when sources are added.Curb Chain (talk) 07:18, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Great, now show us some actual examples of what you cite above from the list that's under consideration here. Oh wait, it really doesn't matter, because, of course, this list is simply a list of death metal bands that were originally formed in the USA. Guy1890 (talk) 21:28, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Without sources. I guess I should start making a List of Tasmanian death metal bands as well!Curb Chain (talk) 01:14, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Hey, if you can find more than one death metal band from Australia, (HINT: You can) then have at it! I look forward to the administrator "close as Keep" to this AfD very soon now. Guy1890 (talk) 03:49, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
 * By your argumentum ad absurdum, every category should have an article. This clearly is not the case and is redundant and duplicative.Curb Chain (talk) 07:55, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm done arguing with you other than to say you should read WP:CLN (and probably also reread every policy and guideline you've cited yourself). And stop making other people fix your improper indenting; your reply to someone's comment should not be lined up with what you're responding to. postdlf (talk) 16:16, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep per my comments above and above keeps. Truly a confused and ultimately indefensible deletion nomination. postdlf (talk) 15:22, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep Author of the page here, more well-adjusted than I used to be, and incredibly embarassed that I've been contacted about some of the petty shit I did on here back when I was 16. Ironically enough, though, despite my initial, ridiculously butthurt reason for creating this page, it seems like it's actually perfectly legitimate as an article, judging by the arguments above. LordNecronus (talk) 15:05, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Update With only 10 entries, I see little point in forking out a separate article from the List of death metal bands lists (List of death metal bands, !–K List of death metal bands, L–Z) since an indepth discussion is not warranted.Curb Chain (talk) 07:16, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Wow...so, you spend the better part of 3 days preemptively removing almost all of the collective work that took almost 4 years to create on the list in question, just to try & get your way in this doomed AfD?? Talk about disruptive editing...that's really unbelievable. Can someone with the proper editing authority please undo all of this guy's recent edits with the edit summaries labelled "already on List of death metal bands, !–K. List of death metal bands, !–K can be made into a more detailed list like those on WP:FL"? Guy1890 (talk) 09:05, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I've reverted. Clearly disruptive to purge a list as having duplicate entries when that very argument is being rejected here. See if you can improve the list further anyway to safeguard against more rash judgment. postdlf (talk) 14:11, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I've done so and no arguement has made that lists are immune to WP:BURDEN. And take a look at WP:FL for lists which incorporate the information on this list and the parent lists (List of death metal bands, !–K and List of death metal bands, L–Z) to see how this is an unnecessary article and fork of List of death metal bands.Curb Chain (talk) 02:14, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Let me translate the above "response" for all to see here clearly. Curb Chain has basically reverted the article again to contain less than 10 band names. We're officially and unnecessarily in an edit war it seems. I do not engage in edit warring. Note to closing administrator - This discussion (and a basic lack of non-deceptive discussion here) should be referred to the proper authorities for possible disciplinary action against this user after a close of this AfD, which is hopefully coming soon (since the consensus to keep the article in question here is pretty clear at this late date). These kind of blatant, disruptive actions cannot, IMHO, be tolerated. Guy1890 (talk) 03:35, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, SarahStierch (talk) 18:14, 12 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep per WP:CLN (part of WP:LISTPURP), as well as a large dose of WP:IDONTLIKEIT and WP:BATTLEGROUND from the nominator. As a subset of a large stand-alone list, WP:LISTN doesn't apply. Note that this list and associated category also don't fall under WP:OVERCAT. Not sure why this was relisted and not closed. Ansh666 20:11, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.