Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of American football players who died during their careers


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Procedural Keep. Clear consensus that this bundling was inappropriate. There is little in the way of discussion of notability per WP:LISTN of the notability of any particular list, understandable though in this discussion. This close doesn't presume any particular list is shown to be notable as a result of this discussion and should not preclude individual renomination if there are genuine concerns about notability. Fenix down (talk) 14:44, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

List of American football players who died during their careers
AfDs for this article:
 * Articles for deletion/List of American football players who died during their career (2014, before title renamed)
 * – ( View AfD View log )

Per the Afd verdict on List of Gaelic footballers who died during their careers, dying for any reason whatsoever before retirement is not listworthy. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:09, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

I am also nominating the following related pages for the same reason:

In some cases, there are notable overlapping lists, e.g. List of association footballers who died while playing.

I am also nominating the following related page because it is even broader (during and after career) and WP:OR:


 * Speedy Keep Gaelic football is a comparatively obscure sport but the sports listed here are quite major and well-documented. The nomination just seems to have grabbed a bunch of pages based on their title with any regard to the particular and specific details of each page and sport.  Why, for example, is List of fatalities while playing cricket not included in this?  The nomination is too hasty and indiscriminate and so I'm calling WP:TRAINWRECK. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:24, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Why not cricket? Because that's sports-related, while these others are not. They include car accidents, a diabetic reaction, suicide, World War II, etc. Now that's indiscriminate. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:25, 15 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete all per the prior consensus and same reasons given in List of Gaelic footballers who died during their careers. Mainly, them dying isn't notable within the context them playing sports because they are not related at all. Therefore, this it isn't a list worthy topic. Whereas, for things like List of fatalities while playing cricket there is a direct connection between them playing the sport, in that case cricket, and their deaths. Which is why it's not included in this AfD. Nice try on the WP:OSE and WP:LAWYERing though. --Adamant1 (talk) 08:53, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * We write about how sources group them. Perhaps it varies by sport or country or both. In any event, if a list needs to be pared down or it's a WP:LOUSYTITLE, those are surmountable issues through editing, not deletion.—Bagumba (talk) 03:28, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep I agree with Andrew that this is a bad case of bundling, each of these should be judged independently and comparing them to the more obscure Gaelic football can't be right. If they've received substantive coverage then they're notable.LM2000 (talk) 09:33, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Reply. It's not the sport, but the grab bag of causes of death all "bundled" together. Also what "substantive coverage" is there as a group, per WP:LISTN? Clarityfiend (talk) 09:59, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Addendum. Nobody, but nobody, cited (or even mentioned) the obscurity of the sport as an argument in the Gaelic football Afd. Clarityfiend (talk) 10:04, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Gaelic football only had a couple of entries apparently, List of baseball players who died during their careers has hundreds. Most prominent source is a list of tragic MLB deaths. Professional wrestling shouldn't be here (it isn't a sport) but sources have made or discussed similar lists.LM2000 (talk) 10:43, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Most or all of those are clearly sensationalist and most (or all) of the deaths have nothing to do with their wrestling careers. Which is the important thing here. For instance one of the wrestlers, who probably isn't notable as one, committed suicide after he lost a foot in a motorcycle accident and did time on drug charges. Should there be a list for wrestlers that aren't otherwise notable because they did time, killed themselves due to it (which had zero to do with their careers), and got mentioned for their death in a sensationalist click bait list? I'd argue no. --Adamant1 (talk) 11:32, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I believe you're talking about Kerry Von Erich, one of four members of the wrestling Von Erich family to die before 35. Nobody is saying every young wrestler that dies died because they were a wrestler but high quality sources have made lists and looked at trends in the bigger picture. The article opens with study from Eastern Michigan University that examined similar lists and compared rate of deaths to those in sports like the others we are talking about here. The Washington Post and Five Thirty Eight (linked above) examined a smaller sample.LM2000 (talk) 12:52, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The Fox News "article" is just a listing aggregated from other news outlets and personal blogs. Whereas, the book is by Irv Muchnick. Who's own bio on his website says he "investigates scandals in sports" and calls him a specialist in "sports muckraking" or in other words, someone who "searches out and publicizes scandalous information about famous people in an underhanded way." Again, that's from his own website. So, how exactly are either of those "high quality" sources? --Adamant1 (talk) 13:26, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, I was talking about Washington Post, 538 and a study from Eastern Michigan University, but we can talk about a self-deprecating comment from a journalist who has written for a variety of sources, including Sports Illustrated, NYT and LA Times too if you want.LM2000 (talk) 07:41, 16 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Procedurally keep all The bundled nomination rationale is an WP:IDONTLIKEIT, as opposed to performing WP:BEFORE and verifying WP:LISTN is not met for each sport. Perhaps deletion was applicable for Gaelic footballers, but it can't be generalized without examining the sources. For basketball, multiple players are mentioned in these:. This meets LISTN:  ... it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources ... The entirety of the list does not need to be documented in sources for notability, only that the grouping or set in general has been. If the concern is that the list should cover non-playing related deaths like murders, then it's a content issue that doesn't merit deletion.—Bagumba (talk) 12:57, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I totally agree with Reyk. Your second source isn't even about someone dying. --Adamant1 (talk) 13:43, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * And yet they are discussed as a group in that source: ... the same condition that led to the deaths of basketball stars Hank Gathers, Reggie Lewis, Kevin Duckworth and Jason Collier.—Bagumba (talk) 02:07, 16 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment- Looking at the articles in question, they are similar enough in form and content that a bundled nomination would be appropriate. It's likely that, if they had been listed separately, people would now be whining about too many AfDs and that they should have been bundled. Dismissing the nomination as merely "IDONTLIKEIT" strikes me more as an effort to spite and annoy the nominator than an attempt to accurately describe the nomination. Reyk YO! 13:09, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Looking at the articles in question ... You need to consider the sources —including potential ones not already listed—for the articles in question per WP:BEFORE.—Bagumba (talk) 00:47, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep Some of these lists have already been shown to pass WP:LISTN by others above. Baseball seems to pass aswell. Using a list from an obscure sport like Gaelic football as a reason to delete lists from major sports is baffling to say the least. Alvaldi (talk) 13:53, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Here are even more lists from baseball, NFL, Football (soccer) and a bundle of all. Alvaldi (talk) 14:07, 15 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete all Collections of arbitrary and unrelated deaths. There is not a distinct notability to having occurred while someone was employed in this particular type of job. Lots of people sadly die untimely deaths of many causes, but this occurs for people in every career and there's no reason to compile these by sport played. Unclear how this may be any different from a List of singers who died while still performing, List of actors who died while continuing to act, or List of CEOs who died during their business careers. Reyk's analysis is correct and this is a reasonable bundle of similar articles. Reywas92Talk 20:06, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Just because we do not have a List of CEOs who died during their business careers does not mean that we should not have lists about other similar things per WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. And on a further note, if the lists passes the notability guidlines set by WP:LISTN, like many of the above lists do, then they belong on Wikipedia regardless of the personal opinions of others. Alvaldi (talk) 22:18, 15 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Pinging commenters of Articles for deletion/List of Gaelic footballers who died during their careers:, , , , . Reywas92Talk 20:17, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete all People end (or change) their careers for a million different reasons. Sportspeople are no different, except perhaps that they tend to be younger. Why not List of American football players whose career ended early due to injury or List of American football players whose career ended early because they were no good? It seems to me that this sort of thing is perfectly covered by the Category concept: Category:American football players who died during their careers or whatever. Also the article List of American football players who died during their careers contains a hugely long list of non-notable players who died young. I know there's a common media obsession with these sort of deaths but it's not something we ought to be following. Nigej (talk) 20:40, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * "I know there's a common media obsession with [INSERT TOPIC HERE] but it's not something we ought to be following." This is the very definition of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. The sentence is so perfectly phrased it should be posted there as a paradigm case. Cbl62 (talk) 02:52, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * It's not a matter of "I don't like it", it's the fact that we are writing an encyclopedia and are not meant to be the gutter press. Why not at article about well-known people with strange deformities, or some other topic that might appeal to the lowest of the low? Nigej (talk) 20:44, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Standing on a pedestal and demeaning certain popular topics as appealing only to the "lowest of the low" still sounds a lot like "I don't like it." A well-rounded encyclopedia can appeal to popular topics that are considered both "high" and "low", "serious" and "amusing". There's even room in the encyclopedia for Schlitzie and Koo-Koo the Bird Girl. Cbl62 (talk) 01:05, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * To me it's more a matter of what Wikipedia is not. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. To provide encyclopedic value, data should be put in context. Nigej (talk) 12:22, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * 1., you state "it's not something we ought to be following". If they pass the notability guidlines set by WP:LISTN then they belong on Wikipedia regardless of your personal opinion. As you note yourself, the media does cover those deaths and there are routenly lists with them as has been shown here above.
 * 2. You further state "the article List of American football players who died during their careers contains a hugely long list of non-notable players who died young". WP:LISTN states that "Because the group or set is notable, the individual items in the list do not need to be independently notable".
 * It's rather like listing the names of everyone who's died in a plane crash. All non-notable people. What it proves is that the list itself is not notable, even if such a list of names appears in the media. Nigej (talk) 12:12, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * - Alvaldi (talk) 22:12, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Basketball-related deletion discussions. Alvaldi (talk) 22:30, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ice hockey-related deletion discussions. Alvaldi (talk) 22:32, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Baseball-related deletion discussions. Alvaldi (talk) 22:32, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Alvaldi (talk) 22:34, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. Alvaldi (talk) 22:35, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Alvaldi (talk) 22:35, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone  22:49, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Spiderone  22:51, 15 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep per Alvaldi; at best, these should be relisted separately to avoid the discussion becoming complete carnage. This is a different discussion to the Gaelic football one because there are actually sources discussing these deaths as a group Spiderone  22:53, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep People look for these types of lists every time an active athlete dies. - Bbny-wiki-editor (talk) 23:29, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * KEEP: naturally meets SIGCOV and passes the NCTEST The Ace in Spades (talk) 00:06, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep. These are notable topics that get significant coverage especially when someone dies, thus are well searched for and well used. -- Tavix ( talk ) 00:17, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep. Notable sports with significant coverage when an athlete dies. Comparing these to a more obscure sport is incorrect since due to the level of coverage. Some of the lists are poorly formatted and need better introductions, but those are not grounds for deletion. Flibirigit (talk) 02:18, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Procedural keep Aye, this smells like IDONTLIKEIT. There is no reason to lump in basketball and American football with Celtic football. Dying during your career is a well-founded reason to have such a list -- it is a defining characteristic for several of these players. No reason for deletion. ~ EDDY  ( talk / contribs )~ 02:50, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment on previous unmentioned AfD The original nomination did not list the earlier AfD, which I have now added above here. That previous one at Articles for deletion/List of American football players who died during their career was closed in 2014 as "Keep". Another indication there is no one size fits all for all sports.—Bagumba (talk) 03:51, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep - My vote is based primarily on the wrestling deaths, for which there have been many articles and news stories about the phenomenon of deaths at an early age. This was particularly prevalent after the Chris Benoit murder-suicide but has been brought up dozens of times with prominent deaths including Owen Hart, Brian Pillman, Davey Boy Smith, and many, many more. With that said, there is obviously a ton of coverage when something shocking like this happens. Hockey was brought into the spotlight just a few years ago with the back-to-back-to-back deaths of Belak, Boogaard, and Rypien. Even athletes from before the internet explosion have significant coverage about their deaths. MLB players Steve Olin and Eric Show died in the early 1990s in separate incidents, but it's easy to find multiple extensive articles about their premature deaths. GaryColemanFan (talk) 05:56, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Speedy Keep 1) this is a WP:TRAINWRECK, it is a vast expansion on a tiny AfD for the relatively obscure sport of Gaelic Football, an AfD that was visited by only 6 commenters, yet it is being applied as a precedent across a swath of significantly more popular (read that Notable) sports and even expanding into the realm of "Sports Entertainment." Deaths within those sports have had significantly more coverage.  2) The article I created, that became List of premature professional wrestling deaths has 13 sources listed in its lede, major media including the BBC and The Washington Post.  That alone qualifies this as notable under WP:GNG.  3) Its not a routine throw away situation as suggested by Adamant1.  Its not a grab bag as Clarityfiend accused.  Deaths among professional wrestlers are 2.9 times greater than normal, that is a significant medical phenomenon beyond even the other sports mentioned in this mass deletion attempt.  And the related research suggest a variety of accumulating factors covering the range of deaths.  4) The NOM called this article WP:OR.  In reality, this article does what wikipedia can do best.  Instead of being limited by the work of a single reporter, this lists compiles information from a multitude of sources into a single location that others can glean from.  Its scope and specifications have been discussed and refined to reach the condition it is in now.  Now you want to trash years of work and contributions, , , , , LM2000 (above) and a host of others including many IPs over 3 and a half years of this article's existence.  Thats a lot of damage based on the precedent of an AfD of unrelated, obscure sport's article. Trackinfo (talk) 07:21, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Sure, lets not delete an article because it's been here awhile and doing so would upset you. Anyway, the problem here is that you say wrestling deaths are "a significant medical phenomenon", but then the list of wrestlers who have died includes a ton of wrestlers who died due to causes that are not a part of that "medical phenomenon." Otherwise, your saying that no wrestler ever has died of causes not related their career. Which is just wrong. You making the connection between wrestlers dying because of "a significant medical phenomenon" and a wrestler dying from suicide due to not wanting to face drug chargers, or all the other random ways the wrestlers in the list have died, is exactly where the WP:OR comes in. 100% there is "a significant medical phenomenon" when it comes to wrestlers dying. Most of the ones on this list haven't died because of it though. The sources don't claim they have and saying otherwise is original research. Period. --Adamant1 (talk) 08:16, 16 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment List of American football players who died during their careers must NOT be 75% non-notable individuals in the College section, my removal of which was reverted. While some are in fact notable with articles, most are not discussed as part of a whole set in independent reliable sources. These lists should be limited to notable individuals. There are millions of non-notable students who participate in collegiate sports, and this is not the place to compile an arbitrary cross-categorization of every person who died in a car accident or other unfortunate but irrelevant reason merely because they played one particular sport vs. another or none at all. Reywas92Talk 07:44, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * That's a content dispute that should be resolved on the article talk page. There's enough blue links on the page where the outcome of that discussion is immaterial to this AfD.—Bagumba (talk) 09:15, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Wrestling-related deletion discussions. —Bagumba (talk) 09:58, 16 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep: As other users said beforme me (talking about wrestling), media covering the death of pro wrestlers at a young age has been covereded several times by media. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 10:55, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep wrestling list The phenomenon of pro wrestlers and their coworkers dying very prematurely is a major issue in the industry and has been covered by countless media outlets for decades. I can't speak for the other lists as I have no experience with them.★Trekker (talk) 15:49, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Procedural keep as the bundling was ill-thought out and this discussion is already a car crash. Re-nominate and consider separately. GiantSnowman 20:07, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Procedural keep per Bagumba and Giantsnowman. Cbl62 (talk) 02:41, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Procedural keep per all above. Ejgreen77 (talk) 22:19, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep per above. J cool bro   (talk) (c) 00:45, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Procedural Keep How can an AFD for a sport only played in one country, that many have never even heard of, be precedent to delete article about major international sports? Nfitz (talk) 22:27, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Flimsy, that would be a good word to use. Trackinfo (talk) 02:04, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Not as flimsy as saying an article should be kept becauase its been around for three years and edited by a "host" of IP users is. Adamant1 (talk) 02:35, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:BADGER. GaryColemanFan (talk) 03:15, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:LAWYERING. Adamant1 (talk) 04:59, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:LIGHTENUP. Cbl62 (talk) 06:25, 22 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep for the ice hockey list, as I don't know enough on the other sports to comment. However as someone who has actively worked on hockey players who died during their career (seeing five of them promoted to FA), a major part of their notability, aside from playing the sports, was their untimely deaths. While they had different causes, they were all known for the same thing, and it is a point noted whenever someone else is added to that list. Kaiser matias (talk) 02:38, 22 November 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.