Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Armenian national heroes


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was delete. Whilst the majority of contributors (4:3) have argued to keep this, I am unable to find a valid reason to keep the article based on Wikipedia policy in any of their arguments:


 * 1) "I have added references." - This fails to address the primary cause for concern.
 * 2) "Armenian heroes should have their own list" - Not a valid argument (and violates NPOV).
 * 3) "Keep per the above two arguments" - above two arguments do not address the problem.
 * 4) "Just because there is an objection of one person being on the list doesn't mean we delete the whole article" - there was no objection to one person, the objection was to the article itself.

I don't often do this nowadays, but with not one valid argument to retain this article, and the 3 arguments for deletion being far, far stronger, I can only close this as a delete. Neil  ╦  11:08, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

List of Armenian national heroes

 * – (View AfD) (View log)

List is unverifiable opinion of editors and definite edit war bait. If an article of this type is not based on the opinions of an official entity like this one is: National heroes of Nepal, it really shouldn't stay. Richfife 19:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete Cruft.Blueboy96 20:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete Inclusion criteria are too ill-defined. Yechiel Man 23:57, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Convert to category - lists of this kind are much better as categories. Their only value is when there are red links identifying articles that need to be written.  Peterkingiron 00:12, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete as OR. If sourced, could be a viable article, but I don't foresee that being doable. JJL 00:39, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Like what YechielMan says, who gets to decide who is a hero and who is a villian? --Infrangible 02:09, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep, I am the creator of this article and I apologize for not properly referencing it before. I have added references to all the national heroes that you can see in the article right now. I have removed those whom I could not find references to. I have this page under my watchlist and will remove unreferenced future additions. - Fedayee 03:08, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Reply still delete Here's a post I made to Talk:Heroes of Azerbaijan that I think touches on the problems that still remain (Replace "Azerbaijan" with "Armenia" as needed):


 * I'm going to put up these two AFDs for your perusal: Articles for deletion/Mother of the Nation and Articles for deletion/Father of the Nation. These are two articles which contained lists of people that were considered either the mother or the father of their nation.  They both were technically well referenced with news articles in which various people were called "The father of England", for instance.  But, the term is too easily used.  Any journalist can toss the term into an article to add emphasis, and they often do.  One person was able to find 20 different people that had been called "the mother of Finland".  The same problem applies to people being called a "Hero of Azerbaijan".  It's too easy for someone to simply use the phrase in passing.  For this article to work, their need to be good sized sources from large, respectable groups or publications that are dedicated very specifically to the idea that Babek (or whomever) is a "Hero of Azerbaijan".  The articles need to be written for no other reason than to prove that point.  Simply tossing off the phrase in the middle of a narrative isn't enough.  No less a figure than Ronald Reagan referred to Oliver North as a hero of the United States.  That's a reliable source, but if I created an article named "Heroes of the USA" and included Oliver North, I'd be laughed off of Wikipedia.  Calling someone a hero to an entire nation is a serious business.  You're speaking for every single citizen of that nation.  Don't do it lightly. - Richfife 05:52, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep. Apart from being featured in the List of Armenians, Armenian heroes (those who are venerated by the Armenian nation) should have their own list. -- Davo88 02:50, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Define "Venerated by the Armenian nation". What percentage of people have to venerate someone before they qualify.  70%?  80%?  90%?  The term "heroes" is very slippery and you haven't addressed the points I made above. - Richfife 04:59, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * One of the entries is considered a "hero" for assassinating a major Turkish politician. There's no way that's not controversial. - Richfife 17:31, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * There is at least one source (ArmeniaNow) which is a poll on who Armenians think their national heroes are (more names should be added in accordance with that poll). Alot of these people have statues dedicated to them in Armenia (all sourced). Also, what's wrong with controversy and being called a hero? Mind you that the so-called "Turkish politician" who was assassinated is actually the equivalent of Adolf Hitler (nicknamed the "Turkish Hitler"). He is the one who brainchilded the Armenian Genocide. - Fedayee 20:58, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The Armenia Now article might possibly be a good start, however it seems that there was a list of nominees that the voters had to choose from. Still something that was selected by one or two journalists.  Also, comparing anyone other than Hitler to Hitler is a really bad idea and will get you nowhere with me, for reasons discussed at length here: . - Richfife 21:32, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * If one is nominated to be voted by the population of Armenia, then it must mean that he can very well be a national hero. Anyway, all these men are considered "national heroes" already, the poll is merely giving it a ranking. As for the Hitler comparison, I don't know why you are being so defensive ... I am not attacking you or speaking emotionally, I am merely citing facts based on sources here and here. - Fedayee 23:12, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep. Per Fedayee and Davo88.--MarshallBagramyan 04:47, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Armenian heroes are the notable people who have made a significant contribution to the creation, re-creation, defense, or well-being of the sovereign Armenian nation. They are corner-stones of Armenian statehood. Names such as Vartan Mamikonian, Haik, and Mesrob Mashdots are well known by Armenians because of their immense influence and great deeds. The definition of what is a hero is fairly simple. Perhaps you, User:Richfife, do not see the "heroness" in them because you're not an Armenian. -- Davo88 23:59, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * As I mentioned above, there is no firm criteria for the article and it purports to speak for all Armenians when it does not. Stating that any true Armenian will obviously consider a particular person a hero isn't addressing the problems with the list at all.  And don't forget, we're not talking about the man himself, we're talking about whether the person who killed him should be considered a hero. - Richfife 00:14, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Which man? Talat Pasha? -- Davo88 00:31, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * No, Soghomon Tehlirian. - Richfife 00:39, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I see no wrong in him being dubbed a hero. After all, he did kill Talaat Pasha, the man who systematically planned the Armenian Genocide that led to the death of up to 1.5 million Armenians. - Fedayee 01:59, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't object to you holding the opinion that he's a hero. I even agree with you.  I never said I didn't.  The problem is it's still our opinion, and opinion shouldn't be on Wikipedia. - Richfife 05:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletions.  -- Pax:Vobiscum 09:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep. Just because there is an objection of one person being on the list doesn't mean we have to delete the whole article. Thats what the discussion page is for. VartanM 04:28, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Reply My objection is to the entire list being the opinion of editors, not a single entry.  See my comments above.  Thanks! - Richfife 05:46, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Specifically, please read the paragraph that begins: "I'm going to put up these two AFDs for your perusal". Thanks! - Richfife 20:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.