Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Ashkenazi Jews (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. \ Backslash Forwardslash / (talk) 08:16, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

List of Ashkenazi Jews
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List has had a "does not cite any references or sources" tag on it since January 2007, and still has 0 sources. Correction, it has 1 source, but that source doesn't actually state the individual in question is an Ashkenazi Jew. And if it were properly sourced (if that were even possible), it would be an impossible list, since it would have tens of thousands of items in it. Jayjg (talk) 00:28, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep It is always presumed in such a list that the persons included are notable enough to have a Wikipedia article. This prevents the list being crowded by the addition of the name of every Ashkenazi Jew who ever lived. For a name to be in this list, there should be sufficient information in the bio article for the individual to confirm that he/she is/was an Ashjenazi Jew. (i.e. descended from the medieval Jewish communities of the Rhineland, presently 80% of the world's Jews). I do not feel it is essential to provide a reference for each member of a list in the list article itself, if the information is to be found in the individual bio article. Those who are questionable (such as if a gentile or a Sephardic Jew like Benjamin Cardozo were added to the list) could be challenged by a source tag being added to that name, and it could be removed if no source could be found. If a Jew is not Sephardic, Falasha, or Mizrahi, is it likely he is Ashkenazi? (Just asking, as a gentile). Edison (talk) 01:01, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You'd be surprised at how many Jews have Wikipedia biographies. Over 3100 in Category:American Jews. Almost 800 in Category:German Jews. Over 800 in Category:Israeli Jews. Over 600 in Category:Polish Jews. Almost 600 in Category:British Jews. 6900 in 5 categories alone. There are dozens of these categories. And that doesn't include the hundreds and hundreds of Jews in sub-categories, like the almost 300 in, for example Category:Jewish American scientists, and the over 800 in Category:Jewish American writers. There are even sub-sub categories, like the over 50 Jews in Category:Jewish American social scientists. There are certainly over 10,000 biographies with some sort of Jew category on it. Oh, and regarding your statement that For a name to be in this list, there should be sufficient information in the bio article for the individual to confirm that he/she is/was an Ashjenazi Jew: to begin with, no, it's not enough for the statement to be in the Wikipedia article. Wikipedia articles must stand on their own for citations, they can't rely on unreliable and ever-changing sources (other Wikipedia articles) to hold their citations. Equally important, and oddly enough, I've seen hundreds of these artices, and I've never seen one biography of a Jew that actually explicitly documented the individual as being an "Ashkenazi Jew". I suppose there must be some that exist; do you think you could find any? Jayjg (talk) 02:29, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions.  — Malik Shabazz  06:20, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment At the very least, maybe this article should be renamed to indicate that it is a list of notable Ashkenazi Jews, otherwise my girlfriend will be asking why I didn't add her. --Mr. Vernon (talk) 06:54, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * On the topic, distilling "a hundred of notables from thousands of notables" just won't work. Some ethnic lists arranged by occupation, i.e. List of Poles, look manageable and tidy, but there you have a cohesive group of Polish editors enforcing more or less uniform approach. I doubt that it will work for Ashkenazis who are now scattered all around the world. NVO (talk) 20:25, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions.  -- Cyber cobra  (talk) 09:11, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. A huge hopeless WP:OR and WP:BLP violative mess.-- brew crewer  (yada, yada) 21:55, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep or split.  We can handle lists of any size, so that isn't an argument for deletion.    A list with entries limited to those people having articles in Wikipedia  subjects is not indiscriminate, but discriminating, according to WP:N. Categories and lists are complementary, and there is no reason not to have both. Lists have the particular advantage of providing some information about the material in which they appear, thus facilitating identification and browsing.  Browsing is a key function of an encyclopedia. As a general rule, for topics like this, if there is a category, there should be a list. This list needs two things: to be completed from he categories mentioned, and to have some sort of identification added to assist browsing.  Considering the amount of work that this would entail, it is however possible that we would do better to split the list, probably by  profession or other reason for notability, to match the categories.  To be discussed on the talk p, but if nobody is prepared to do the work, there isn't much point. As for documenting the Ashkenazic rather than Sephardic origin,we can of course start looking for direct references for country of origin.    DGG ( talk ) 23:13, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. --Shuki (talk) 21:02, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * delete Way too large. Hopelessly unmaintainable. We have categories for a reason. And yes, we can have lists of any size but we want navigable lists. By a rough estimate there are easily at least 20,000 or articles that should be on this list. That's precisely the sort of thing we have categories for. JoshuaZ (talk) 00:50, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * This list sucks. When I become notable (when, not if), please don't describe me as an ashkenazi.  Frankly, ashkenaziism is not even a hard concept - what if one of my ancestors immigrated to Ukraine from Morocco?  Should I be classified as a sephardi as well?  This is all stupid categorization.  -- Y not? 21:39, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete as unmaintainable and chocked full o' WP:OR.  young  american  (wtf?) 16:12, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete - I can't see this topic adhering to encyclopedic standards. There's just a LOT of Ashkenazim out there, and we can't even sort them out properly.  Jaakobou Chalk Talk  18:14, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.