Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Australian prime ministers by political affiliation


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect 1, keep 1.
 * Redirect List of Australian prime ministers by political affiliation to List of prime ministers of Australia
 * Keep List of prime ministers of Australia by time in office

The consensus is that the main Aussie PM list already displays party affiliation, while it does not effectively display cumulative time in office, hence the different result. -- Patar knight - chat/contributions 06:32, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

List of Australian prime ministers by political affiliation

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Both of these list articles are redundant WP:CONTENTFORKs of List of prime ministers of Australia presenting the same information in an extremely similar format. There is no need for WP to have multiple pages presenting the same information especially as List of prime ministers of Australia has sortable columns. Any useful information should be merged with List of prime ministers of Australia. Vladimir.copic (talk) 04:09, 28 October 2021 (UTC) I am also nominating the following related page:


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. Vladimir.copic (talk) 04:21, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Vladimir.copic (talk) 04:21, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions. 05:55, 28 October 2021 (UTC) --Canley (talk) 05:55, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep. I think this list is valuable as it very quickly allows the reader to see how many Prime Ministers have come from each political party.--Bduke (talk) 06:46, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
 * So does the List of prime ministers of Australia, as others have pointed out. With that article it took me all of five seconds to get a list of all the prime ministers from the Country Party. Delete.  Athel cb (talk) 07:37, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete WP:FORK of List of prime ministers of Australia. MrsSnoozyTurtle 07:22, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete both or redirect both to List of prime ministers of Australia, entirely unnecessary CFORK of the latter which has a searchable columns allowing readers to search by political party or time in office. Cavalryman (talk) 07:32, 28 October 2021 (UTC).
 * But it cant display the combined time in office of PM's who had miltiple terms. Superegz (talk) 00:06, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Sure it can. In fact, I just added it. TompaDompa (talk) 00:28, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete as redundant, not likely search topics as the search will yield List of prime ministers of Australia. Geschichte (talk) 08:03, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete both per WP:DELREASON: Content forks (unless a merger or redirect is appropriate). These are both very obvious forks of List of prime ministers of Australia. I don't see any content worth merging there and I don't think these titles would make for useful redirects. I suppose whether Template:Timeline Australian PM should be transcluded could be discussed separately, but List of prime ministers of Australia does the same thing so it would seem rather redundant to me. TompaDompa (talk) 17:51, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
 * But the List of prime ministers of Australia by time in office article contains the combined term in ofice for PM's with split terms like Menzies and Rudd. This information and how this combined term in office impacts the rankings is nowhere else. Superegz (talk) 21:10, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Cumulative time in office is now also at List of prime ministers of Australia. TompaDompa (talk) 00:28, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Weak keep. I can see how this list IS serving a useful function. However, the list does need to be improved, for example, by adding some source citations. YTKJ (talk) 19:06, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Just noting that I added references to each PM on List of prime ministers of Australia by time in office a couple of days ago.Superegz (talk) 04:24, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep. It's useful to be able to easily see how long a leader held power in comparison to others in their office. When this is just one of many aspects of the office listed on a page it's likely to get lost amid other information. Axedel (talk) 00:33, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
 * The lists on these two (1 2) articles are almost indistinguishable so I am not sure how that argument stands. Vladimir.copic (talk) 00:57, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
 * They are not actually as 2 has no way of seeing the combined term in office for a PM with a split term in office. It lists each ministry separetly, which as a result shows split-term PM's as though they are multiple people. Superegz (talk) 20:40, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I have now added cumulative time in office to List of prime ministers of Australia where applicable. TompaDompa (talk) 00:28, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * An example of why your implementation is not good enough is Billy Hughes. When I sort by time in Office, his later Ministries are still displayed below Stanley Bruce and Joseph Lyons, while his 1st Ministry as a Labor PM is way below. I would have to do some manual thinking to realise where he actually belongs in the list. Also there is no number displayed so I can easily determine his ranking. The List of prime ministers of Australia by time in office article as it currently exists does not have these problems and also avoids the issues of each ministry being displayed separately which is not very clean. That alone, in my opinion, is reason enough for the separate table to be kept. Superegz (talk) 04:44, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
 * That sounds more like a reason to keep tinkering with the implementation (if anything) than to keep a content fork to me. TompaDompa (talk) 05:55, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
 * If a satisfactory table that can present all the information in a clean way can be created, perhaps. I doubt that such a table that can present both the cronological order of PM's terms as well as a ranking of time in office, taking into account PM's who had split terms can be easily created. Until such a table is in place, I think the best thing to do is keep the current List of prime ministers of Australia by time in office article. Its not like its an unusual solution. Most, if not all, parliamentary countries and subnational parliamentary system's have such a separate table for time in office for this very reason. Superegz (talk) 10:43, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete at least the political party article, as it's already listed on the article for the prime ministers as a whole.2601:241:300:B610:3CB7:E279:67AC:8D10 (talk) 16:10, 30 October 2021 (UTC) — 2601:241:300:B610:3CB7:E279:67AC:8D10 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Keep at least the List of prime ministers of Australia by time in office article. The sortable table on the List of prime ministers of Australia does not produce a proper version of this list. For example, it shows each ministry separately when you select time in office and there is no way to see the combined time on office for PM's who served multiple terms, like Rudd or Menzies. If you deleted the article, this information would be lost. That means that there would be no way to see, among other things, that Rudd over took Edmund Barton or that Alfred Deakin served longer than John Curtain, Paul Keeting, Ben Chiefley and Andrew Fisher. The Articles for deletion/List of prime ministers of the United Kingdom by length of tenure, Articles for deletion/List of prime ministers of Canada by time in office and Articles for deletion/List of presidents of the United States by time in office (2nd nomination) were recently kept for similar reasons. Superegz (talk) 20:27, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I added cumulative time in office to List of prime ministers of Australia where applicable. TompaDompa (talk) 00:28, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I still think the implementation looks really dodgy and you still cant easily see a proper order of pm's by time in office. The article as it exists now is way better and more consistant with the articles of other countries. Superegz (talk) 00:41, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I might see if I can merge the election fields or something later. Superegz (talk) 00:51, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I had a little bit of a play around and I just dont think this is something that it is possible to really implement in a satisfactory way in a single table without breaking other parts of the table. I believe that its best for there to remain a separate table for the list by times in office. Its clearly not a coincidence that people have come to the same conclusion with other countries equivalent pages. Superegz (talk) 23:51, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep the Prime Ministers by time in office article for the legitimate reasons raised by Superegz and the similar AfDs for other countries being kept as an outcome. Deus et lex (talk) 04:32, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment Thanks to the work of TompaDompa cumulative time in office is now reflected in List of prime ministers of Australia. While some may have issue with the exact presentation (see WP:IDONTLIKEIT), this is WP:FIXABLE and I don't think justifies keeping List of prime ministers of Australia by time in office for the 7 examples that have multiple non-consecutive terms in office now this information is retained. We can easily add a column for 'Total time in office (all periods)' that would give exactly the same information. Other arguments seem to boil down to WP:WHATABOUT. Seems like most editors are on the same page about the political parties page though. Vladimir.copic (talk) 23:41, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
 * My argument for keeping the List of prime ministers of Australia by time in office isn't so much WP:WHATABOUT, it's that the same arguments that were used to keep those other articles from the UK, Canada and the USA also apply here. The List of prime ministers of Australia is not fit for the display of such information and I don't think it has been sufficiently demonstrated that it is possible to create a single table for both purposes, which is the conclusion other editors came to when discusding those other articles. The main problem is that the List of prime ministers of Australia is primarily a list of prime ministerial terms, which are naturally separate not only with individuals in the case of those who had split terms but also split at each election, ministry and in the case of Billy Hughes, change of party affiliation. This is because the table was designed to show the chronology of prime ministerial terms, a job it does well. The problem is that this really makes it a mess when you sort by time in office and any changes to fix this would result in less information for other parts of the table.
 * My argument for keeping the List of prime ministers of Australia by time in office isn't so much WP:WHATABOUT, it's that the same arguments that were used to keep those other articles from the UK, Canada and the USA also apply here. The List of prime ministers of Australia is not fit for the display of such information and I don't think it has been sufficiently demonstrated that it is possible to create a single table for both purposes, which is the conclusion other editors came to when discusding those other articles. The main problem is that the List of prime ministers of Australia is primarily a list of prime ministerial terms, which are naturally separate not only with individuals in the case of those who had split terms but also split at each election, ministry and in the case of Billy Hughes, change of party affiliation. This is because the table was designed to show the chronology of prime ministerial terms, a job it does well. The problem is that this really makes it a mess when you sort by time in office and any changes to fix this would result in less information for other parts of the table.
 * The List of prime ministers of Australia by time in office by contrast is primarily a list of the actual people with the information of individual terms, change of party, elections won etc consolidated into single fields. This works well for the purpose it was designed for too because it provides an easy way to see how long each PM served, how many they have served longer than, how many have served longer than them etc.


 * The problem is that you are trying to merge 2 fundamentally different tables, designed for different purposes, that do not go well with each other, especially under the Parliamentary system of undefined terms of office and no term limits. Superegz (talk) 00:20, 2 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep – per Superegz's rationale. Whilst I respect efforts to merge List of prime ministers of Australia by time in office into the main table of List of prime ministers of Australia, it doesn't perform two of the functions of the former list: Firstly, sorting PMs seems to duplicate their entry (eg. Robert Menzies is listed seven times, Howard, Hawke, Fraser, and Lyons are listed four times each). Secondly, PMs can no longer be ranked by time in office. The latter point is notable considering news outlets routinely discuss a current PMs length of tenure against a former one they have just surpassed:
 * Excerpt from The Australian: "Morrison is on track to eclipse Kevin Rudd, Julia Gillard and Malcolm Turnbull by the end of this year. Indeed, if Morrison is in office by Christmas he will also surpass Edmund Barton, Gough Whitlam and John Gorton to become the 13th longest serving out of 30 prime ministers."
 * Excerpt from The Canberra Times: "Mr Morrison will surpass Julia Gillard this week and become Australia's 14th longest-serving leader."
 * Those are just two recent examples regarding the current PM, but I can also find examples for PMs Gillard, Rudd, Abbott, Turnbull, and potentially older PMs in the literature. It is also worth considering that List of prime ministers of Australia by time in office has been viewed by more than 18,000 people in the last 3 months. I have no opinion for List of Australian prime ministers by political affiliation. —MelbourneStar ☆ talk 06:06, 2 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete Per the nom and @TompaDompa. Both of these articles are just redundant WP:CONTENTFORK's of List of prime ministers of Australia. Wikipedia doesn't need essentially the same exact information spread out over three articles. Newshunter12 (talk) 14:49, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I feel like you are straight out ignoring the points raised by MelbourneStar and myself. The information on the List of prime ministers of Australia by time in office can't be adequately reproduced on the List of prime ministers of Australia page. That List also is clearly meeting a need of the community as demonstrated by MelbourneStar.Superegz (talk) 20:35, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep, as they are useful lists.Jackattack1597 (talk) 18:57, 4 November 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.