Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of BlazBlue characters


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Consensus is clearly against deletion, and not enough support for merging to close this discussion as such. Editors may still consider merging through normal channels, keeping in mind WP:SPLIT. At any rate, this content is to be developed further. postdlf (talk) 19:28, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

List of BlazBlue characters

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WP:GAMETRIVIA No. 6: a long list of characters without any WP:VG/RS'es going into detail. Looking up a couple of names on the custom Google search engine I get little results, where they're mentioned in passing. Nothing worthwhile on development or reception, which would make this a decent list. Redirect to BlazBlue should be fine. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 11:36, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. North America1000 11:57, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Video games-related deletion discussions. North America1000 11:57, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. North America1000 11:58, 25 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Merge into BlazBlue.  Anarchyte  ( work  &#124;  talk )   09:55, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Merge game-specific content to each of the games articles, redirect the list to BlazBlue. --Izno (talk) 14:00, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep: I believe this article has some potential if its kept as its own article. Here's an IGN article that discusses a few of the series' characters. Here's a full article about Noel Vermillion. There's also an interview regarding some of the series characters and their designs found here. For good measure, there's also a few brief mentions of characters in listicles by Complex, here, here and here. With these, the article is, in my opinion, worth being kept. Kokoro20 (talk) 21:35, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Merge to series article, per above. Source a characters section in the series/individual game articles first and let it spin out summary style from there. Kokoro's first two refs are decent, but I wouldn't count the Complex listicles as more than mentions. czar  01:14, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify, I agree that the Complex sources alone wouldn't have been enough, as they are pretty brief, but with the other three sources I provided, I would say otherwise. And with a franchise as popular as BlazBlue, you would think that more coverage exists of its characters. Kokoro20 (talk) 09:06, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   19:42, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep, thanks to some great source hunting by Kokoro20. I'd say the GNG has been met.  Satellizer el Bridget (Talk)  13:26, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
 * and, we've got two additional sources, apparently Complex isn't usable. I haven't had a chance to check the other sources (I'm on vacation, greetings from lovely Valencia!), but is the IGN one so in-depth it allows for a list of BlazBlue characters? Because the other sources discusses one character, right? And we could remove every character that isn't sourced, but isn't having a properly sourced character section on its main article a better option? (I think there's a guideline on having one good article instead of two okay articles, but looking up guidelines is a pain). soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 17:09, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
 * What do you mean that Complex isn't usable? In all discussions I've seen for it, it's been declared as a reliable source. Actually, I provided three other sources, not two. Both the IGN and GameRadar sources discuss multiple characters (including Ragna the Bloodedge, Jin Kisaragi, Noel Vermillion, Litchi Faye-Ling and more), while Venture Beat source only discusses on (Noel Vermillion). The IGN source, in particular, goes pretty in-depth with their background, and how they are in battle and everything.
 * said they were only listicles where some characters are mentioned in passing ("the 50 hottest video game characters"), and Complex is not considered a WP:VG/RS. So how are they usable?
 * To clarify, Complex should be fine for reliability—it's just that these specific links (read them) give us literally nothing worth citing in an article about BlazBlue characters (par for listicles, really) and are thus worthless for a notability discussion. (Notability discussions are for proving that a topic is widely covered such that we can write an article without resorting to original research and primary sources—so a one-sentence mention in a list of the top 25 pervs in video games is exactly the type of "coverage" that we ignore.) czar  08:36, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I already addressed the concern of those sources being "in passing" in my previous posts. And just because Complex isn't listed at WP:VG/RS, doesn't mean it can't be used as a source. Kokoro20 (talk) 14:27, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't agree with just not having any character who is not sourced in the list at all. If it's a list, it should mention all characters in some way, whether or not they can be sourced. But either way, I'm sure sources for other characters can be found, even if they are in passing. Kokoro20 (talk) 03:49, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
 * What do you mean? Information has to be sourced, otherwise that's just WP:OR. If WP:THEREMUSTBESOURCES, where are they? And they shouldn't just be mentioned in passing, that's the whole point of having a list of notable video game characters (see WP:VGSCOPE No. 6). soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 07:52, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but we don't need to cite every little thing (WP:BLUE). Anyone who has played the games should know what characters are in it, so the game itself can used as a source for basic mentions of the characters. We shouldn't be removing basic knowledge, just because they can't be cited to a third-party source. Then for notability purposes, that's where the sources I mentioned come in. I'll ping for his thoughts on this matter. Kokoro20 (talk) 14:21, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree with Kokoro20. Somewhat relevant is WP:LISTN, which says that "The entirety of the list does not need to be documented in sources for notability, only that the grouping or set in general has been. Because the group or set is notable, the individual items in the list do not need to be independently notable." Thus, a WP:PRIMARY reference to the game itself to verify that the character actually exists in the game should be sufficient to counter OR, which is meant to stop synthesis and hoaxing.  Satellizer el Bridget (Talk)  14:40, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Hi everyone, I'm at the airport right now, I'll try to reply tomorrow, if I get the chance. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 13:53, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
 * and Ah, there we go! Replying on the mobile site is a pain.
 * To go over the sources:
 * IGN's spotlight describes the characters in-game, without mentioning development or reception. WP:VGSCOPE No. 6: "Standalone lists of video game characters are expected to be (1) written in an out-of-universe style with a focus on their concept, creation, and reception".
 * The piece on VentureBeat isn't by their staff, it's user-submitted.
 * GamesRadar's piece is pretty good! A lot about the development, where the characters come from.
 * Complex on Taokaka: "Taokaka may seem like your average innocent catgirl but she's got a lecherous obsession with breasts – only the big ones, though. They're “bouncy and squishy” and any female character that doesn't fuel her strange obsession is of no interest to her. Of course, her strange fixation might simply be a childish obsession, but who knows? This girl loves boobs."
 * Complex on Litchi Faye-Ling: "The hottest doctor in video games is is a toughie that can control a staff using a panda hairpin. According to her story, she's also a firecracker after a few drinks. A rowdy drunk with a medical degree sounds like a keeper!"
 * Complex on Hakumen: "This swordsman is known as the one of the great six heroes for good reason. Catch him in his counter stance and be prepared to get laced with kick combos and a massive blade to the face."
 * The only really usable source is GamesRadar. How does that meet WP:GNG, or allows for WP:LISTN? At this point I'm still not convinced that a small, sourced section wouldn't be a better option than what we've got now. I had WP:VGSCOPE No. 2 in mind earlier: "Don't create multiple small articles when one larger compilation will do". soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 07:21, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I have some counter points to make:
 * 1. I don't really see why it should make such a different to have sources to how they are in-game, at least not when they are the only sources about the characters (which is not the case here). The gameplay details they give them are very useful anyway, and is the kind of thing we should be looking for in articles.
 * 2. It is not writer by staff, but it is written by a "community writer", indicating that they would still have some authenticity. And going by their "Contact" page, they don't just let any user submitted content go through, if that's anything to go by.
 * 3. Like I said, I would agree if the Complex sources were the only source available, but they are not.
 * But the list of BlazBlue characters article is not that small, which is a given with how many characters the series has. Kokoro20 (talk) 13:18, 6 June 2016 (UTC)


 * If you want to try and change consensus on WP:VG/MOS you're more than welcome to try, but right now, those are the guidelines. First, Wikipedia is not a WP:GAMEGUIDE. There are plenty of websites that allow for in-depth information with strategy guides, collectables and detailed biographies from fictional characters. But for Wikipedia, explaining in detail the backstory of Ragna the Bloodedge moves and his abilities is just that: trivial game information. WP:VGSCOPE No. 6 says: "Standalone lists of video game characters are expected to be (1) written in an out-of-universe style with a focus on their concept, creation, and reception, and (2) cited by independent, secondary sources to verify this information". That's why IGN's piece on the character isn't useful either. Second, concerning WP:VG/RS: it is consensus to not use user-submitted articles and pieces, even if it that is somehow okay by their standards. Same goes for other websites that sometimes feature user-submitted pieces, like Kotaku for instance. And we can't possibly use it either, because it is a loveletter. And maybe I'm not making myself clear: I am saying Complex can't be used at all, because of its tone and that it says absolutely nothing informative for the general reader. IGN is gameguide material, VentureBeat is a user-submitted declaration of love and Complex is juvenile in tone (and again, not a WP:VG/RS). So we have GamesRadar. We have one reliable source. How does that meet WP:GNG? The fact that the series has a lot of characters does not mean we should ignore the fact that Wikipedia has certain guidelines that need to be followed. So far, the stand-alone notability of these characters have not been proven. soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 15:20, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
 * The IGN source wouldn't violate WP:GAMEGUIDE, if we use it properly. Mentioning a few gameplay characteristics of a character is not the same as a "game guide", nor any kind of "how-to's" for a game. For example, let's say I implemented this piece where it says "According to IGN, Ragna is one of the easiest characters to use" to the article. That's an opinion piece, and I fail to see how it is any kind of game guide. Explaining gameplay characteristics in detail as not my intentions.


 * Yeah, but as I said, the VentureBeat source is written by a "community writer", which I'm not sure if it's the same as a user submitted article. Someone should probably look further into that. And what exactly does is being a "loveletter" have anything to do with it?


 * Past discussion indicates that Complex is reliable though by multiple users . So far, you're the only one I've seen who disagrees that it's reliable. Also, first you say Complex isn't unusable, then you say it isn't a reliable source? Kokoro20 (talk) 17:17, 6 June 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm not saying IGN somehow violates WP:GAMEGUIDE; it couldn't, because WP:GAMEGUIDE says Wikipedia shouldn't be. I am saying that the only information that piece provides will serve as gameguide material: i.e., special attacks and character backstory. I wouldn't object to a sentence like "According to IGN, Ragna is one of the easiest characters to use", but that's the best we can get out of the piece is my point.
 * Have you read the user-submitted piece? "Now that I have an Xbox, I think I'm in love with someone else: Noel Vermillion from Blazblue. I didn't think I'd ever play as such an unusual character who acts so similar to me in real life". "She's just as good at fighting as I am at writing news stories". "She's a loving person who probably wouldn't want to see me broke and living around mom and dad all the time". Are you honestly going to use an opinion piece like that?
 * I've made a mistake, apparently Complex is a WP:VG/RS! But let's not forget that it doesn't automatically mean we can use it everytime (like this discussion makes clear (,, I noticed your replies there, any thoughts?) So far I'm the only who disagrees? also said we can't use them here, and we're only a handful of people actually partaking in this discussion.  soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 18:28, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I see that part, but let's not forget about other things he says, such as "Oddly enough, she's one of the few game characters who I can truly sympathize with." when he praises her story and everything. Czar said we shouldn't be using Complex here to establish notability, not because it's unreliable. But in any case, let's see what the people who you pinged has to say. Kokoro20 (talk) 19:41, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
 * The problem with a list like Complex's is that it's, best as I can describe, pandering. It's not really constructive criticism as opposed to personal justification why they are included on a list. It doesn't mean its not a usable source, but it's skirting the edge of what I would consider to be good secondary information that is used to judge notability. --M ASEM (t) 21:05, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeah, my main objections to using Complex is when we're basing entire reception sections out of sourcing these 4 sentence listicle entries that amount to "Chun-li was ranked 78th out of the top 100 fighting game characters of 2003 because writer Jim Smith 'thought she was hawt' and 'liked those long legs"." Its that sort of crap that isn't significant coverage or meaningful content. These sources don't seem to be as bad as that though. I'm currently undecided. Sergecross73   msg me  13:43, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't want to become too involved in this, but I will add that there's a difference between not using a source and saying that source doesn't contribute much towards notability. Whether "Chun-Li is hot"-type Top 10 lists make her notbale can be up for debate I guess but I wouldn't go as far as to remove them from the article, because they are still RS sources.  Satellizer el Bridget (Talk)  14:01, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Correct. I do believe it to be an RS, and usable to source info in general (if one can find content worth adding to an encyclopedia article.) I think they could in theory be used in an article to prove notability, if they wrote something of length and substance. Sergecross73   msg me  22:27, 10 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete as there's still nothing to suggest its own solid separate article instead of simply mentioning any basic needed information at the BlazBlue article. SwisterTwister   talk  06:34, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Not even a merge to a character section at BlazBlue?  Satellizer el Bridget (Talk)  14:01, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Comment: I've done some more searching now, and found some more coverage. Here's another Complex article, which discusses V-13, and another article by VentureBeat, which discusses Arakune and Hazama (you need to click on the gallery link). Here's another article that gives some coverage on Arakune too. I'll try and implement some of these sources to the article soon. Kokoro20 (talk) 14:43, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, SST  flyer  03:31, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment: Two interviews with developers where characters are discussed 1 2  Satellizer el Bridget (Talk)  13:54, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep GNG is met, the rest is stuff fixable through normal editing. Jclemens (talk) 17:54, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Anime and manga-related deletion discussions. AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 00:00, 19 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep This is a huge list so I have no idea how a merger would work out. My recommendation would be to trim the list to the most essential characters and build on from there. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:02, 19 June 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.