Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Chabad Chief Rabbis


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Randykitty (talk) 11:01, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

List of Chabad Chief Rabbis

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

WP:LISTCRUFT, contested PROD. At the very minimum the lead section needs to be expanded and the overall list condensed, but I honestly don't feel that such a lengthy list is appropriate as a standalone article. Taking Out The Trash (talk) 19:50, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep So, expand the lead section if you want. What policy or guideline says that a complete list should be made shorter and therefore incomplete? Cullen328 (talk) 19:59, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * "Listcruft" refers to "indiscriminate or trivial lists". This list is neither indiscriminate nor trivial. Cullen328 (talk) 20:03, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Lists of people and Judaism. Shellwood (talk) 20:26, 26 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep There are many lists that are far longer; condensing the list would remove relevant info, and there's no good way to decide which is more relevant. Helpfulguy101 (talk) 20:34, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * lead section expanded Helpfulguy101 (talk) 20:42, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Randykitty (talk) 20:51, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment / Concern I would agree with the Wikipedia definition of Chief Rabbi as "a title given in several countries to the recognized religious leader of that country's Jewish community, or to a rabbinic leader appointed by the local secular authorities." This appears to be the definition of the other such articles at Lists of chief rabbis. There appears to be only one individual (for Montenegro) where the person listed here has an actual title of Chief Rabbi. The remainder seem to be in a role of lead Chabad shliach for a country or U.S. state, which is basically what's stated in parentheses in the lead. To call these individuals "Chabad Chief Rabbis" seems to be a bit of title inflation; to be honest, I'm not sure what it means to be designated as the Chief Rabbi of North Dakota. A significant portion of entries are entirely unsourced and many that have a source are to Chabad sites for a specific location and most of those mention the local shliach but don't identify the person as either chief rabbi or lead shliach for the country / state. The article may well be worth retention, but it needs far better sourcing and likely needs a more accurate title. Alansohn (talk) 16:31, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * As far as "chabad chief rabbi", a. if there's one shliach in the area he is the head shliach, and b. there can be a discussion to rename it chief chabad rabbi b.there are many individuals on this list designated chief rabbis (Russia, Cyprus, etc,), but they are on Lists of chief rabbis. This is a list of the chief rabbi for the chabad rabbis in the area, and, in many cases, they are the only rabbis in the area, wether they refer to themselves as chief rabbi or not. No-one was designated "Chief Rabbi of North Dakota", although he is, as far as I can tell, the only Rabbi in North Dakota. He is the Chabad Head Shliach, or Chief Rabbi, in North Dakota. Again, if you want to change the wording to "chief chabad rabbi", whatever, but they are the chief rabbis as far as chabad goes. Helpfulguy101 (talk) 16:48, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * The head shliach is the recognized leader of the chabad community Helpfulguy101 (talk) 16:50, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete. Prodding is very inappropriate for such lists, as opposition was to be expected. The analysis of nom, however, is correct. This is LISTCRUFT. It isn't particularly respectful of Chabad either. Beyond the titles of the rabbis, also the geography is partially WP:OR. gidonb (talk) 23:58, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * What does "respectful of Chabad" have to do with anything? Helpfulguy101 (talk) 00:18, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Each person may raise all the points that bother them. My objection is clear. This list is LISTCRUFT. gidonb (talk) 00:21, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
 * This list is definitely not indiscriminate. It could be argued that it's trivial, but Chabad is, in many places, the only Jewish presence, and this lists the rabbis who run this system. Many of the rabbis listed are notable people, many with separate articles, and many more qualify for one. List of Catholic bishops in the United States is much longer, more general, and more bloated, with detailed profiles of many of the people referenced. This does not have bloated info of the listed rabbis, and is specific to Chabad. Helpfulguy101 (talk) 03:23, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
 * You are comparing a list of bishops who are actually bishops to a list of chief rabbis who for the most part are not chief rabbis. This comparison contrasts the type of list that should be kept with the type of list that should be deleted. As a list of chief rabbis, this list is not just indiscriminate. It is EXTREMELY indiscriminate. It includes people who even by a far stretch of the imagination are not chief rabbis. Plus this is not the only concern I have expressed with this list. There is exclusion here of the people of the Caribbean and Central America from North America (yikes!) and there is a total disregard (and implicit disrespect) for the female Chabad emissaries who are codirectors of Chabad centers, as are the husbands. And, even then, my list of objections to this list is inconclusive. There is a lot here that contradicts our policies, guidelines, and essays. gidonb (talk) 10:37, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
 * This is not meant to be a list of chief rabbis, rather of the chief chabad rabbi in that area. thus, if there is one chabad rabbi in a particular country, that rabbi is the head of Chabad activities in that country. If there are more, barring exceptions, the first one to come is the head of chabad activities there. This list includes those rabbis, and only those rabbis, and is thus not indiscriminate.
 * Im not sure what the objection to excluding the Caribbean and Central America from North America, and I'm also not sure that anyone would object if that were switched.
 * Female Chabad emissaries, are, as they themselves would tell you, not rabbis.
 * There is no definitive definition for "chief rabbi" in any jewish law or literature, rather it implies the rabbi that is appointed over the other rabbis of the community. If there are no other rabbis in the community, such as Cyprus, there are also Chief Rabbis. Catholic bishops, on the other hand, have a clear definition, and are appointed by one system, as agreed upon by all. The only jewish movement, to my knowledge, that has a membership of rabbis from dozens of countries is chabad. therefore, it would seem logical that a list of the head chabad rabbi in each major local exist. The name of such a list is irrelevant. Helpfulguy101 (talk) 16:49, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Many statements in all these reactions to Alansohn and me are plainly incorrect. Others are beside the point. I like it does not trump WP:INDISCRIMINATE! gidonb (talk) 12:56, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I would disagree. The only real objection is that they're not chief rabbis, when the definition of "chief rabbi" is very unclear. in addition, they are the chief of the local chabad rabbis, local being relative. I don't see the problem. Helpfulguy101 (talk) 17:37, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh, that's very far from my only objection. It is an important one in a long list. Basically what you uploaded is a DATABASE of the codirectors of all Chabad houses worldwide, minus the women because they "are not rabbis" ("as they would tell me themselves"), and the Chabad houses that were not the main ones in a country or US state. You also introduced two new, totally fake continents to the Western Hemisphere. Next, you did anoint the remaining codirectors "Chief Rabbi", a title the overwhelming majority of these people never received, but the WP:OR started way earlier. This list is a classroom example of original research. gidonb (talk) 05:44, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Most, if not all, of the source for the director of chabad activities in said area is from chabad.org/centers, where the movement lists the directors of the said areas. I found it more useful to source the year they started over the source for their position. Helpfulguy101 (talk) 05:57, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 * So you find a database on the web useful. That part is fine. I sometimes use the same resource. Yet, nowhere in the policies and guidelines does it say that editors should copy random parts of databases from the web, give these new interpretations, plead in the AfD that this isn't so bad, engage in WP:WHATABOUTISM, and in WP:BLUDGEONING of those who disagree. gidonb (talk) 06:07, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Asia-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 22:01, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Europe-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 22:01, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
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 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 22:02, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
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 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Caribbean-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 22:02, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of South America-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 22:03, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. Randykitty (talk) 22:51, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete I didn’t originally understand why this was nominated but I am persuaded by the points gidonb has made in the discussion above. Mccapra (talk) 08:13, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete Much like User:Mccapra, I find User:Gidonb's arguments above compelling. There's an overwhelming amount of original research here even where actual citation exists (2009 sources used to claim a "current" status for example). I should mention WP:BLP, since it hasn't been linked previously in this process. This list, by an implication of "current" (a.k.a. living), is an explosion of BLP violations, "chief" and "current" statuses being designated by wikipedians without any proof at all. By BLP policy any contentious claim given without proper citation may and should be immediately removed by any editor. Leaving this page pretty much blank... BusterD (talk) 08:48, 13 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.