Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Christian Brothers school alumni (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Opinion is divided, but the WP:V concerns voiced by DMacks at the end are determinative. This article fails WP:V and WP:BLP because the association of these schools (and therefore the alumni) with the Congregation of Christian Brothers is not sourced. I checked a random example: "John F. Larkin, attorney general of Northern Ireland (Belfast) – St Mary's Christian Brothers' Grammar School, Belfast". There is no article for the school and no footnote associating that school with the religious movement (or indeed establishing that the school exists and that Larkin attended it). While individually that would be a cleanup issue, almost all entries have the same problem. There is only one sourced entry among dozens or hundreds. This mandates deletion of the entire article per WP:BLP.  Sandstein  06:57, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

List of Christian Brothers school alumni
AfDs for this article:


 * – ( View AfD View log )

An organization is affiliated with hundreds and hundreds of schools. It doesn't own them, they aren't franchises -- it's an affiliation. That affiliation can begin and end at any point in that school's history. This is a list of alumni of schools which happen to have had that affiliation, many of which have their own Wikipedia articles with duplicate lists of alumni. Not a valid cross-categorization. &mdash; Rhododendrites  talk \\ 18:40, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. &mdash;  Rhododendrites  talk \\ 18:40, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. &mdash;  Rhododendrites  talk \\ 18:40, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. &mdash;  Rhododendrites  talk \\ 18:40, 13 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete WP:SYNTH that fails WP:NLIST Qwaiiplayer (talk) 20:04, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete Totally agree with the nominator and that this fails WP:SYNTH/WP:NLIST. The few people's articles that I looked at didn't even say they were an alumni of this place either. So the list is totally Indiscriminate OR on top of the other issues. --Adamant1 (talk) 07:43, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete for the exact same reasons laid out when I first nominated the article for deletion. This is a non notable cross categorisation of names. Ajf773 (talk) 08:38, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep these schools are all part of a single chain, or brand, all connected with a single teaching order of monks, the Congregation of Christian Brothers. Note that we have an article List of alumni of Jesuit educational institutions, a similar set-up, and we could have such articles on a number of other orders, such as those in, and other . Also note Alliance Israélite Universelle was a 19th century Paris-based chain of schools for Jewish children in Muslim countries, it was run out of Paris and taught a modern curriculum in French. If individual articles are inadequate they should be dealt with individually accordingly and that is not an argument to delete this whole article. This issue was thoroughly dealt with in the earlier discussion.Emendment (talk) 22:38, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
 * They are not part of a chain/brand. The schools are not owned by the Christian Brothers; merely affiliated with and [at least partially] staffed by. That affiliation can begin after a school is founded and end at any time. That other similar stuff exists isn't a reason to keep this. &mdash; Rhododendrites  talk \\ 22:56, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
 * So what? They are all connected in some manner with the Christian Brothers whether that connection is historic or actual. All the following school are identified as Christian Brothers schools: Cardinal Newman College, Buenos Aires; Waverley College, Sydney; St Peter's College, Auckland; St Columba's School, New Delhi; and St Edward's College, Liverpool, or in schools in twenty other countries. Some of them were never owned by the Christian Brothers but they are all identified by that brand because at some point they were staffed by the Christian Brothers.04:21, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
 * So a staffing agency is notable because the company that they provide employees to is? (BTW, that has nothing to do with the notability of the connection between the Alumni in this and them either). --Adamant1 (talk) 07:56, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
 * The word "charism" is often used for the style and mission of a religious order. It is not just a brand but a particular focus of the member's lives (they were monks living in monasteries and present at the school 24/7) and in the case of a teaching order like the Christian Brothers, their teaching style. No one argues that the Jesuits had their own charism which was immensely influential on those educated by them in the last 500 years. Its the same in the 200 years of the Christian Brothers founded to educate poor Irish boys. In his Annual principal's report for 1988 for St Peter's College, Auckland, Brother Prendergast described the characteristics of a Christian Brothers school as: the encouragement given to pupils to strive for scholastic excellence; a religious dimension; the cultivation of a strong devotion to the Virgin Mary; the emphasis given to the care and concern for each individual in the school community; and a particular concern for the poor. He also said that Christian Brothers' schools throughout the world had a remarkable similarity of purpose, spirit and tone. Also from the wikipedia article on St Peter's, Auckland: Monsignor Paul Farmer (a pupil 1960-1965), the chaplain of the college at various times from the 1970s and current chaplain in 2021, had a family connection with St Peter's going back to its opening in 1939, when his father was a first day pupil. Farmer has said, in praising the work of the Christian Brothers at St Peters, "The Brothers I think, created an extraordinary spirit - they laid the foundation for the school. They were good men, practical men, and very generous men with their talents and their lives." "There were only ever, in my early days here, one or two lay teachers as they were called then, and [the brothers] might have got only one free period a week. They had no car - I remember when I was here, the old boys and the PTA had a big fundraiser to buy the brothers a car. We can't imagine that today." "They ran the place on the smell of an oily rag - remember, 1939 was the year World War II started. They were difficult times, and these guys put their hearts and soul into the place. Everything was done by them - a broken window was fixed, the lawns were mowed, everything."Emendment (talk) 20:16, 17 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Oh dear. I came here expecting to vote to delete this, but (annoyingly) I'm persuaded by the above reasoning. In particular, I note that there is a similar list for those educated by Jesuits, but this isn't a "foolish consistency" point: rather, I note that the Christian Brothers do have, and do seek to inculcate, a particular ethos or way of thinking and acting, just as the Jesuits do. Just as it's useful for readers to have access to a list of those educated by Jesuits - to "compare and contrast", if you like - so it's useful for readers to have access to similar lists for those educated in different traditions. I don't generally care for "list" articles, but they are a lot easier to read than working with tags, so I think I'm persuaded to Keep. RomanSpa (talk)
 * The reason for deletion wasn't "other similar things don't exist" nor "there is no ethos associated with their teaching" but about our guidelines regarding lists and the required sourcing. &mdash; Rhododendrites  talk \\ 00:25, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
 * According to the NPOV filled citation above they cultivated a strong devotion to the Virgin Mary and mowed the lawns. I'd hardly that educating anyone about anything. Especially if your going to compare them to the Jesuits, who as far I'm aware actually have a Jesuit based educational curriculum that they teach in Jesuit schools. There's a big difference between that and some random guys who are mowing the lawn being like "Hey kids, the Virgin Mary is cool..or whatever." --Adamant1 (talk) 02:31, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
 * The spirit and approach are the important things and the Christian Brothers' education curriculum (yes they had one) seems to have produced a lot of very accomplished people - look at the list.Emendment (talk) 10:26, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Spirit and approach (whatever that means) aren't important to this AfD, multiple reliable sources that connect to the Christian Brothers to the Alumni is, but sure lets keep articles becuase of spirit. Whatever. Anyway, the Christian Brothers didn't produce those (questionably accomplished) people. Their hardwork (probably more privilege) as aided by the schools they went to did. Both of which the Christian Brothers had an extremely minor role in. Adamant1 (talk) 10:38, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
 * The point is the schools were or are operated by a Catholic religious order. Wouldn't you expect them to promote the catholic faith in their schools including the Catholic doctrines relating to the Virgin Mary etc? Also should all lists of alumni attached to wiki pages for the schools now be deleted since no students are influenced by their teachers? How ridiculous is that? Also if this page is deleted the Jesuit one and all the others would have to be deleted as well.Emendment (talk) 04:37, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * And? Their promotion of faith to the Virgin Mary wasn't what "produced a lot of very accomplished people" though. Which is what you were claiming. Otherwise, point out any article on this list that wasn't COI edited (or otherwise screwed with) that even mentions the Christian Brothers as an influence on the person's career. Also, Jesuit's aren't relevant because people call themselves Jesuit and associated themselves with other Jesuits. For instance there's List of Jesuits. Whereas, no one on this list associates with the Christian's Brothers and there is no List of Christian Brothers. There isn't a List of Jesuit school alumni either to even be deleted in the first place. It's really odd that you don't know that when you brought up the Jesuit article being deleted if this one is. It's also odd that you don't understand the difference between the two orders and how people associate with them. Since you seem to be semi-knowledgeable about the topic. --Adamant1 (talk) 04:56, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Adamant1 is right, the education of alumni is primarily related to the school they went to. All those schools (presumably all) already have a list of notable alumni. Linking them to the religious affiliation those schools are related to and bundling every single entry into one list is a cross-categorisation. The primary contributor to this list article, and also the one vehemently defending the article, has offered nothing in the way of independent secondary sources to accompany this article to make it even a remotely notable topic. Effectively, all this list serves is a massive puff piece for the Congregation of Christian Brothers. Ajf773 (talk) 08:19, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's a "puff piece" - there isn't much in the way of fancy words or attempts at persuasion. What there is is a list of information, compiled in a convenient form for users of this encyclopedia. I think this is a useful contribution to Wikipedia: it provides a convenient articulation of information that researchers and other interested parties would otherwise have to assemble afresh each time they wished to study the topic. Maybe the Christian Brothers are influential on their students, or maybe they're not. Maybe they're ultimately inconsequential in their impact on society, or maybe they turn out to be secretly running a massive worldwide conspiracy to introduce Marianism to the entire planet. With this helpfully collated information, users of this encyclopedia can more easily start to work out the answers to these questions themselves; without it, understanding, one way or the other, becomes more difficult. I think we're here to help our readers understand the world, and this list can help that. RomanSpa (talk) 08:54, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Putting aside 99% of your message that has absolutely nothing to do with the AfD, 100% acting like there's a meaningful or notable connection between the people on the list and the Christian Brothers is an attempt at persuasion. Otherwise, point out one single article on this list that hasn't been COI edited (or otherwise screwed with) that shows a connection (meaningful or not) between the person in the article and the Christian Brothers. Let alone one that says the person is an alumni of a Christian Brothers school. --Adamant1 (talk) 09:09, 20 July 2021 (UTC)


 * New (or perhaps restated in a different way) point. I'm grateful to Adamant1 for (perhaps inadvertently) drawing our attention to a key point, where they introduce the concept of "acting like there's a meaningful or notable connection between people on the list". I think this phrase makes the point we're discussing clear: if there is a meaningful or notable connection between people on the list, then the list is something more than the sum of its parts. As Emendment has already noted, the Christian Brothers do have a "charism" - an ethos, if you like - and they do try to apply this. A moment's Googling allowed me to find a variety of academic papers and independent research supporting this here, here, here, and here, for example. Academic researchers are able to identify and discuss commonalities in the Christian Brothers' educational approach, and this seems to me to support the view that there is a notable connection between the people on this list. (I've already stated that I think this page should be kept, so I don't think I need to explicitly restate my position in this additional comment. RomanSpa (talk) 10:57, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I said a connection between the Christian Brothers and the people that are in the list. Not academic research that identifies and discusses commonalities in the Christian Brothers' educational approach. Create a Christian Brother's article and put all the research on the Christian Brothers educational approach in it that you want, but that has nothing to do with this list or the AfD. --Adamant1 (talk) 11:05, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Sourcing concern: unlike other groups of schools (say, Jesuit), if this affiliation is not intrinsic to the school, then every entry needs to demonstrate that the person attended during the time the school was affiliated. It's not enough to say "Joe attended St. Someone College" because "St. Someone College alumni" only has an intersection with Christian Brothers rather than being a subset. That means tracking every person's timeframe and the affiliation timeframe of each school. DMacks (talk) 16:44, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, King of ♥ ♦ ♣</b><b style="color:black"> ♠</b> 04:22, 21 July 2021 (UTC) <div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, <span style="font:bold 15px 'Bradley Hand','Bradley Hand ITC';color:#044;text-shadow:0 0 4px #033,0 0 10px #077;"> —&#8288;Scotty Wong &#8288;— 06:00, 29 July 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.