Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Christian performers of hip hop and rap


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Will move to List of Christian hip hop artists Neil N  talk to me 18:54, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

List of Christian performers of hip hop and rap

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

This looks like an example of an "non-encyclopedic cross-categorization" (see: WP:What Wikipedia is not). Note that this as a list of artists who are (a) Christian, and (b) perform hip hop and rap music. But being a Christian has no connection to hip hop and rap music, so that makes this list an example of "non-encyclopedic cross-categorization". There are other similar lists (like List of Christian metal artists), but there is a great difference. List of Christian metal artists lists artist who perform Christian metal, regardless of their religion. So, that is not cross-categorization.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  23:23, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 03:46, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 03:46, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 03:47, 9 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep but rename to List of Christian hip hop artists, since an article exists at Christian hip hop. sst✈(discuss) 03:53, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep under either the current title or the former. Comment This list was originally a List of Christian hip hop and rap artists, but I moved it to the current name due to this discussion. Basically, some editors argued that the criteria for the list was, for a long time, Christians who perform hip hop, rather than artists who perform Christian hip hop, so I moved the list to the current title in order to avoid more contention. I also proposed that a separate list, specific to Christian hip hop as a genre, be created, since this list is broader than just the genre. If this type of categorization (that is, by professed faith of the artist) is found inappropriate, then move this article back to it's previous title, and remove entries that aren't cited as working within the genre of Christian hip hop. I will note that I don't think it is inherently inappropriate to list musical artists by faith, as, at least in this case, Christianity in hip hop is something that has been noted within reliable sources.-- 3family6 ( Talk to me   &#124;  See what I have done  ) 04:11, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep Not a non-encyclopedic cross-categorization, it's an encyclopedic (and referenced) list of performers. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:42, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment As the article currently stands I agree that it is a case of non-encyclopedic cross-categorization; however, it appears that the original article was intended to include performers of Christian rap and hip hop (which would not be a case of non-encyclopedic cross-categorization) rather than Christian performers of rap and hip hop. The inclusion criterion was changed after the article was created.
 * Lede as created in Nov 2008: "This is an incomplete list of some of christianity's most prolific hip hop and rap artists." This is not definitive as to whether it is Christian music or Christian performers.
 * Feb 2009 lede changed to: "This is a list of Christian hip hop and rap artists." Since it was linked to the Christian music genre this indicates the intent was to include performers of the Christian genre, rather than Christian performers.
 * Sept 22 2011 User:Walter Görlitz changed lede to: "This is a list of Christian hip hop and rap artists. This list includes all notable Christian bands, MCs and artists that perform music under the category of hip hop, rap or their sub-genres." This was a fundamental redefinition to the inclusion criterion which creates the current non-encyclopedic cross-categorization issue. The change seems to have been a unilateral change made by Görlitz during his talk page thread []. There has been a long history of users removing entries since the artists were not performers of Christian rap or hip hip, so the redefinition of the article has never been entirely accepted (or perhaps understood).
 * The appropriate actions are to restore the original name of the article, to clarify that inclusion criterion as performers of Christian rap or hip hop, and to remove the current performers who, while Christians, do not perform Christian rap or hip hop. If we leave the inclusion criterion as Christian performers of the genres then the article is clearly a non-encyclopedic cross-categorization and should be deleted. Meters (talk) 18:53, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with Meters. The article move that I made and rewording of the lead was an attempt at a compromise. Personally, I prefer the list as it was before, a list of artists who perform Christian hip hop.-- 3family6 ( Talk to me   &#124;  See what I have done  ) 21:30, 9 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete as an indiscriminate list as defined in the lead. Mere profession of Christianity on one side vs. performing worshipful Christian music on the other. --Bejnar (talk) 20:13, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * ,, , (also , , and , if they'd like to comment as well): Could we agree to restore this article to its prior name, "List of Christian hip hop and rap artists" (or "List of Christian hip hop artists"), and limit inclusion only to artists who have been explicitly associated with Christian hip hop?-- 3family6  ( Talk to me   &#124;  See what I have done  ) 04:52, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * That's my point. sst✈(discuss) 04:55, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * The previous article name was fine: List of Christian hip hop and rap artists. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:21, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * But do you agree to, with the restored name, limit the criteria of the list to artists that are explicitly associated with Christian hip hop?-- 3family6 ( Talk to me   &#124;  See what I have done  ) 06:22, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree that if renamed to "List of Christian hip hop artists", and limited to the performers of Christian hip hop, the list would be encyclopedic. Note that he article is named "Christian hip hop" (not "Christian hip hop and rap"), so the list should be named "List of Christian hip hop artists" (not "List of Christian hip hop and rap artists").  Vanjagenije  (talk)  09:51, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with "List of Christian hip hop artists" (hip hop and rap are two terms which are quite synonymous) and I'm opposed to the deletion of this list, which can perfectly be improved with sources found at WP:CCM/S. Some of them seem to be specialized in Christian hip hop. Synthwave.94 (talk) 18:05, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 13:42, 15 December 2015 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Onel 5969  TT me 13:42, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment "List of Christian hip hop artists" is still an ambigous title even if properly modified by restrictions in the lead.  Unfortunately many of our editors do not read (or possibly do not conprehend) the lead before adding names to lists. An unambigous title would be something like "List of performers of Christian hip hop", or a variation thereof. --Bejnar (talk) 15:29, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * In which case the list of Christian rock bands and list of Christian metal artists would, similarly, have to be renamed. I personally don't think there is a need for this. I frequent all of these lists, and very rarely do I see artists added just because they profess Christianity. Usually the opposite is the case, where a professed Christian artist is described by reliable sources as performing Christian music, but someone disagrees with that assessment and removes the artist. The only place that I have seen the "Christian performing music" vs. "performing Christian music" become an issue based on the title of the article is this list, and that was because at least one editor had a broader scope of inclusion for the list, based on the fact that some sources equate "Christian music" with "music performed by Christians."-- 3family6 ( Talk to me   &#124;  See what I have done  ) 04:48, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep I don't understand the reasoning of quote-on-quote "indiscriminate list as defined in the lead. Mere profession of Christianity on one side vs. performing worshipful Christian music on the other" - Christian rap can be worshipful to some. If we followed what I just quoted, what would the point of CCM, and sub-genres of Christian music such as Pop, Metal, Country, etc. be? I think that the current title "List of Christian hip hop and rap performers" is fine as it is. ilovechristianmusic  (Tell Me Something!)  16:09, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I think you misunderstood. Bejnar isn't saying that rap can't be worshipful. What they are saying is that the criteria for the list should be that an artist performs worshipful rap - Christian rap - and not any artist that claims Christianity.-- 3family6 ( Talk to me   &#124;  See what I have done  ) 04:48, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Ah, I understand now. Then I agree that a rapper should perform worshipful rap, or faith-filled rap to be on the list. ilovechristianmusic  (Tell Me Something!)  20:55, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep: This list article passes GNG, where Christian hip hop is a notable genre of music, while it has notable performers, and a list does a tremendous job in providing a resource for the purposes of this encyclopedia and its readers, utilizing this invaluable tool. The genre even has a website devoted to its musicians at Holy Hip Hop Database, providing further evidence of its significance in the music lexicon.The Cross Bearer (talk) 23:21, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Please read the preceding comments. I don't think anyone is suggesting that a list of performers of the Christian Hip Hop genre is not a valid article. The problem is that this article as it stands is not a list of performers of the Christian sub-genre. It's a list of Christian artists who perform Hip Hop. Not the same thing at all, and why this is up for deletion under WP:What Wikipedia is not Meters (talk) 23:31, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Then, it is a scope issue and one of titling and not of notability or deletion, where 3family6 renamed this too ambiguously. It should have been, List of Christian hip hip and Christian rap performers. Still Keep, but move and rename to better title.The Cross Bearer (talk) 00:02, 16 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep: the list can be renamed with a better title ("List of Christian hip hop artists") and multiple sources can be found to improve the list at WP:CCM/S. Synthwave.94 (talk) 13:24, 16 December 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.