Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Contemporary Writers of the American West


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. A strict reading of the arguments below calls for delete, but if somebody wants to turn this into a category (as some suggested) and/or merge some information from here into List of Western fiction authors, I don't see anything which would prevent them from doing that. -- RoySmith (talk) 20:32, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I've stuck out some extemporaneous and extraneous comments of mine per request -- RoySmith (talk) 20:54, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

List of Contemporary Writers of the American West

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This list ought to be a category, if anything. I encourage interested editors to create Category:Contemporary Writers of the American West and add the listed authors to it. Other than that, I really don't know what to do with it. Other editors are welcome to disagree. Jsharpminor (talk) 03:19, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep That's not a valid reason for deletion. If you don't know what to do with it, you don't have to do anything, but hypothetically someone could improve it by adding references, dates, representative novels, geographical areas, etc. WP:CLN says lists and categories aren't exclusive. If you feel that strongly that this should be a category, create it yourself, don't expect somebody else to do the work. Without having references right now, I strongly suspect that contemporary western fiction is a subject that receives study in academic journals and books, and the nomination doesn't seem to question this. The only negative would be whether this would be better merged into a list of all western-themed literature from Fenimore Cooper and Karl May to the present day. --Colapeninsula (talk) 09:43, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * We already have List of Western fiction authors. postdlf (talk) 18:32, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I created the list. I am happy to convert it to a category, if that is the consensus, and I'm just now figuring out how to link out and in.  I was hazy on the difference between list and category when it was created, but now I understand that they are two parallel structures (although Wikipedia does say that both structures are equal).  I would make the argument, however, that this should not be merged with Westerns or western-themed literature.  There are many writers of the American West/in the American West who do not write Westerns and who do not write what many people would call western-themed work.  Their work is about the contemporary West, and if you do a search for them, all you get is writers of Westerns, and so this list fills an important gap.  This is similar to the category of Southern writers. I could go into much detail about cultural hegemony of coasts and how the contemporary West keeps getting pushed into the past, as if today doesn't exist, but then I would be a jerk. :-)  Guidance is much appreciated. Tlinse (talk) 12:09, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Note I posted at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Literature. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 12:18, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:16, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:16, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:16, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:17, 21 May 2014 (UTC)


 * This seems too vague to be useful, given that it lumps writers from the American West with writers who later moved to the American West with writers who write about the American West. And then it arbitrarily selects "contemporary" writers out of that group...if that is to mean "currently active", then that makes this impossible to meaningfully update short of someone dying (at which point they are removed from the list?). So unless this is a recognized genre and/or literary period (in the way that modern art is, despite the use of a generic-sounding adjective), this is not a proper list subject but instead seems like a made up awkward conglomerate. Converting it into a category would make it worse because the ability to annotate would be lost, as is pretty necessary when there are a range of reasons why an entry is being included in a grouping (a good rule of thumb: if it makes for a bad list, then it tends to make an even worse category). I also question whether this is worth salvaging, such as by narrowing its focus, given that we already have more targeted lists such as List of Western fiction authors or list sections such as List of people from Texas. And anyone trying to change this list into something else would have to basically research it from scratch given that none of the included names explain why they are included. I'm leaning towards delete at this point for those reasons. postdlf (talk) 18:32, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia has the category Writers from New York City. This category is similar to that one - it is a grouping of writers from a geographical area.  It is also similar to Category LGBT Writers from Canada in that it is a subgrouping within a geographical area (contemporary). It should not be included with Western (genre), however, because as was said it already has its own category and is not the intent of the list. Tlinse (talk) 18:47, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Yet when you created the list, you included people just because they write about the West, and you included people just because they are from the West regardless of whether they write about it or even stayed there. We do have Category:Writers from New York City, but we do not have List of contemporary writers of the American Northeast. Nor do we have any other lists or categories of writers by region rather than by specific states or cities. postdlf (talk) 18:54, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * So you would advocate for a narrower set of criteria? So if the category was narrowed to only those who live in the American West for a specified amount of time (to be defined), and not those who write about the West, that would be acceptable? Point taken about writers of the Northeast; however, why is there no category: writers of Denver or writers of Phoenix? Would that not be just as legitimate? (In other words, New York City and Chicago are the only cities that have this type of category, and therefore just the lack of other cities having categories does not necessarily disqualify a type of category.) Tlinse (talk) 19:06, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Category:Writers from Denver, Colorado, Category:Writers from Phoenix, Arizona. Anyway, I question the very purpose of a list that by its nature could only be a broad conglomerate. The Census defines the Western United States as including 13 states, literally just everything west of a certain line from north to south. What's the informational benefit to listing writers from California with those from Hawaii, from Oregon with those from New Mexico, from Utah with those from Alaska? If you'd like to use another definition of the West, then that's your case to make, but in this context I can't see how it won't still be arbitrary, simultaneously duplicative and less focused than the lists by state, and unconnected to what they actually write about (or where in the world they ended up). All of which is probably why we do not have any lists of American people by U.S. region that I'm aware of (which is relevant to the extent there is no established practice to point to). postdlf (talk) 19:40, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I definitely see the problem of where to draw the line.  I also, however, see another problem, which is related to literary canon and the legitimization of categories.  Perhaps that's not a discussion to take up here.  However, I would say that you can do a search on the internet (not necessarily Wikipedia) for "Southern Writers" or "New York City Writers" and come up with a reasonable list. However, if you do a search for "Western Writers" you get only those who write the genre of Westerns.  There ought to be a way to fill this gap, and as one of Wikipedia's missions is to reflect current knowledge, it might be a good hole to fill.  Or would you suggest an article called "Western Literature" or "Literature of the American West" that goes beyond simply the genre of Western?  How might we fill this gap?  (Part of Wikipedia content depends on what people define themselves as, and there are a number of writers in the American West who define themselves as writers of the West - see writers organizations - and therefore shouldn't that be represented in some way, if Wikipedia is trying to reflect current knowledge?) Tlinse (talk) 21:16, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * If reliable secondary sources only define writers as "western" based on genre rather than mere place of origin or residence, then that's all we should do as well. I think WP:SYNTH is on point, which is the application of our policy against original research to the specific problem of combining sources to draw conclusions that the sources themselves do not clearly assert. In other words, we can't be the first ones to assert that these writers comprise a meaningful group, such that writers from New Mexico (or their writings) have a relationship or kinship with those from Washington that they don't have with those from Texas. postdlf (talk) 21:53, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * There are secondary sources that choose a broader definition: The Western Literature Association http://www.westernlit.org/about/; scholar Thomas Lyon http://www.amazon.com/The-Literary-West-Anthology-Literature/dp/0195124618; Western Writers of America http://westernwriters.org/about/; Nicolas Witschi http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-1405187336.html; and so on. So we would not be the first to assert the broader definition.  This list may not be the ideal form to reflect this (or it might). Perhaps there should be a page called Literature of the American West, much like Southern Literature, that included the genre of Westerns but is much more expansive. Tlinse (talk) 22:49, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment - why is geographical qualifier needed? Wouldn't List of Contemporary American Writers make more sense?--Staberinde (talk) 15:39, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NorthAmerica1000 10:37, 30 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete. This has too unwieldy a set of criteria, especially the part about living in the western part of the country. As already noted, contemporary is also tricky. List of Western fiction authors seems sufficient to me. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:50, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete It's basically a WP:CFORK of List of Western fiction authors. That article should be developed first. It's in bad shape. If we want a "Contemporary" category, create a sortable list with a column for date active. The best way to slice and dice along categories is create sortable lists with columns, it's possible to get a ton of information into a single table without needing to fork off redundant lists that get out of sync. -- Green  C  23:53, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.