Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Cultural References on Neglected Mario Characters


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result of the debate was NO CONSENSUS. &mdash; J I P  | Talk 14:26, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

List of Cultural References on Neglected Mario Characters
The page seems to have rather low encyclopedic value (although a lot of work was put into it). Pavel Vozenilek 01:47, 21 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Keep. This page is a very good reference for the fans of the NC comic. True, NC may not be that mainstream, but doesn't mean it should be (pardon the pun) neglected. SPKx 01:57, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Hey, other places have stuff like this too, and you don't see theirs getting deleted. --ChunkyKong12345 02:08, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. It reveals a lot of information which cannot even be found by looking at the site. Furthermore, for people who don't get some references, it explains them. --Metal Man88 02:16, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Sean Kelly and I worked our rear ends off on this. NC was the first sprite comic, and it is a neglected one (bad pun intended).  8-Bit Theater, Bob and George, PennyArcade, VGCats etc. have lots of stuff on the Wiki, and they do not see any deletion.  To delete this would not only be an insult to those who worked on it, but to Jay Resop, Lord Reid, CodieKitty, and everyone else who put their time and efforts into making something that deserves far more attention than it gets.  Brian Clevinger and other spriters get lots of praise and even appear at conventions.  Jay doesn't get this kind of praise (in fact all he ever seems to get from something other than fans is ridicule).  If someone were to make a list of Family Guy references (which are very similar to these), it wouldn't get deleted at all.  Please save this page!  Also, thank you to all those who came (or will come) out in support of this project. --Crazyswordsman 02:41, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it." Delete for being an overblown in-depth article about cultural references in a obscure sprite comic. --Apostrophe 04:07, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I always welcome edits to the page by others. That's how the page gets better. --Crazyswordsman 04:27, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Ah, but you clearly don't welcome deletion, which is a form of editing. --Apostrophe 04:40, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * True, but I prefer to be optimistic, positive, and helpful. --Crazyswordsman 04:43, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * While Crazyswordsman make have went overboard on his praise of NC, I have to say it's far from obscure. - SPKx 05:04, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I admit I have gone a little overboard. Maybe a better idea would be to break this master list down into several smaller ones? --Crazyswordsman 05:13, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment. This page has more than 350 edits in two days. Are the contributors editing one word at a time? &bull;DanMS 04:50, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm doing (extensive) research as I edit this page. I also flip back and forth between sections depending upon need (because I can keep track that way).  I also may edit a word or two if it appears that I made a mispelling or grammatical error.  I usually edit as many references into a particular section before switching.  I'm doing my best. --Crazyswordsman 04:59, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment. What, exactly does is this comment supposed to imply? I'm unaware of a per-day edit limit... I also prefer to edit as I go along, rather than risk my computer freezing or rebooting or my browser crashing or who knows what ..before I can click the "save page" button and after I've spent hours working on something. --Naha|(talk) 19:59, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * There have also been many corrections on my behalf. - SPKx 05:04, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I want to go on record by saying that Crazyswordsman has been very ambitious in compiling this list. He worked for over 10 hours, without anyone asking, to make this page.  Jay has been very impressed with the results and, no matter what, he wants to keep this list whether it's on wikipedia or not. - SPKx 05:41, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment: That's great, and admirable and all that. I hope he gets to put his work to good use somewhere. However, the fact remains that this page is not something you would/should find in an encyclopedia, and "hard work" is not enough to justify that. And to Crazyswordsman's objections throughout this discussion, please do nominate similar pages elsewhere. I would vote delete on anything this granular about any topic of similar notability/verifiability. (ESkog)(Talk) 08:25, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Y'know, I hate people that go around throwing our catchphrases around, but this is the cruftiest cruft I ever crufted. (ESkog)(Talk) 05:46, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * If this is cruft, so are all the Family Guy references in the FG related articles. It is my belief that little, nonprofit projects like NC shouldn't have to play second fiddle to big corporate giants like FG here on the Wiki. --Crazyswordsman 06:02, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Have I or anybody else claimed otherwise? Regardless, can you please cut out on the whole "STANDING UP TO THE MAN!" stuff? --Apostrophe 06:10, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment For the record (only for closing admin's information, not judging anyone here):
 * SPKx has roughly 10 edits not related to Neglected Mario Characters;
 * I see no reason to go around a edit random pages on wikipedia. I CREATED the NC article, so that is obviously the one I concentrate the most on.  If I do find another article that needs an addition or and edit, I will edit it.  Don't judge me because of that. - SPKx 13:21, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Metal Man88 has only 2 edits, both to this AfD subpage;
 * and Crazyswordsman has only 4 edits not related to Neglected Mario Characters. (ESkog)(Talk) 05:50, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, unencyclopedic.--nixie 06:03, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * By your definition just about any list of cultural references is unencyclopedic, and there are many other lists on the site. --Crazyswordsman 06:10, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I assure you, I take that position. Bring any to my attention, and I'd gladly push them into AfD.--Apostrophe 06:14, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge to Neglected Mario Characters. FCYTravis 06:12, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Have you looked at the article? --Apostrophe 06:14, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't think a merge is a good idea because then the main NC article will be too long. Long articles are what lists are for. --Crazyswordsman 06:16, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * A list of every single cultural reference in a Webcomic is not encyclopedic. Merge the most important ones, and suggest to the makers of NMC that your list be uploaded on their site. FCYTravis 06:20, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that would seem like a good idea, but Jay almost never updates nowadays. --Crazyswordsman 07:46, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I would be interested in putting this work onto NC, if it is ultimately decided to be deleted from Wiki. It seems like a lot of work has been done to put this together, and it would be a shame to waste it.  Crazyswordsman, send me an e-mail, and we can talk about it.  Merging with the main NC article would probably be a bad idea, since this list is so long.-jay Jay Resop 14:05, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Already been done. --Apostrophe 06:31, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I have another Comment. I don't know much HTML, nor do I have the money for a webpage (and I'm not about to do some Geocities page).  If this gets taken down, where am I going to put this list that I put hours into making? --Crazyswordsman 06:15, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Just to repeat myself from earlier, we can put it on NC. Send me an e-mail and we can talk about it.-jay Jay Resop 14:28, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Your userspace. I.e. User:Crazyswordsman/List of Cultural References on Neglected Mario Characters. Just don't have the actual encyclopedia link to it. That's against policy. --Apostrophe 06:17, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. I can't see any viable reason to delete this. Fits with the wiki webcomic project and represents a scholarly approach to a neglected field that may be of great use to future researchers and cultural historians. -- JJay 06:29, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I have another Comment. The point of this list isn't so much cruft as it is to raise awareness of NC, and to be a reference list for anyone who reads it. --Crazyswordsman 06:46, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, preferably with explosives. Good lord, this must be the cruftiest cruft ever crufted. --Calton | Talk 06:57, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Holy crap! This is THE most obscure article/list I have ever seen. Unencyclopedic. Zunaid 07:47, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete for a very simple reason: NO ORIGINAL RESEARCH. Hello? Flyboy Will 07:56, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Did you (or any of you) even bother to read what I wrote, or visit NC? You're all just jumping to conclusions. --Crazyswordsman 07:58, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Here's a link to the policy Flyboy Will is referencing. Your work on this page is uncited, and really uncite-able, since it is actually you who is going through the work of looking at all the comics and carefully cataloguing the references to anything that is not NC. That makes this article a primary source, and not suitable for Wikipedia. (ESkog)(Talk) 08:28, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I've put new updates on hiatus currently and am citing each source (All the major series except NC Chronicles are complete anyway). This will take awhile, so don't pester me.  Sean and Jay, I could use your help.  Thanks. --Crazyswordsman 18:10, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, ESkog, your description makes it sound as though NC is the primary source, and this article is a secondary source referring to it. That's perfectly acceptable in an encyclopedia. Factitious 20:34, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
 * And could you guys please leave the criticism to constructive criticism only? All you're doing is flaming my work, and I take great offense to that.  Only Sean Kelly, FCYTravis, and to a lesser extent, Apostrophe, have given me constructive, useful criticism that I take gladly.  Everyone else is just flaming me like I know exactly what's supposed to happen.  This is my first major project, I'd like a little kindness, please. --Crazyswordsman 08:09, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Who says this page can't be cited? What we can do is provide a link to the comic (or, more specifically, the frame) where the reference was made. - SPKx 13:29, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete per Flyboy Will: NOR. --Zetawoof 09:15, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Ambi 09:31, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. This is cruft about cruft about cruft, which makes it cruft about cruftcruft, or cruftcruftcruft. I like to think of it as cruft³. Wikipedia has a policy of no original research. Consider putting it on your user space if you want your efforts to be retained, as what you've created is actually not an encyclopaedic article. Proto t c 11:14, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Obviously a ton of work went into this, but it just isn't an encylopedia topic. Maybe the comic would like to put it on their own website? Andrew Lenahan -  St ar bli nd  13:09, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment Could some please give a detailed explaination WHY this is not an encylopedia topic and WHY it is so different to all of the "List of..." subtopics you find all over wikipedia. - SPKx 13:29, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment Do you guys really see any point to putting this on the NC site? That's a bit of an idiotic thing to do... --ChunkyKong12345 13:44, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually Chunky, Jay said he would be willing to do that if we don't save this page. - SPKx 13:56, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep I'm going to say Keep, but I'll respect any decision that the people here at Wiki ultimately decide, since I'm not one to impose myself. In this article's defense, Neglected Mario Characters has already been accepted as suitable Wiki article.  If the main article is acceptable, and if there are other similar lists for similar articles (See Characters_of_Bob_and_George for an example of a similar page), then I don't see why this one should be deleted.  But if you all decide to delete it, then that's all right.  Personally, I'm simply honored that Neglected Mario Characters has been allowed to be a part of Wikipedia, and I don't want to press my luck, heh.  If it's deleted, I would be interested in putting this article onto my site instead.-jay Jay Resop 14:23, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. I've nothing against documenting cultural references to stuff in principle, and someone's obviously gone to a lot of effort over this, but I can't help feeling that this list is... well... useless. Webcomics, by their nature, tend to be full of pop-culture references, and a list of them is rather like a list of joke punchlines with the questions left out. The difference between this list and a list of cultural references on Family Guy is that Family Guy humour is mainly situational and surreal, not pop-culture-based, and therefore a list of cultural references is more manageable. Basically, I can't think why someone would read this list instead of reading the webcomic, which is, after all, free. --Last Malthusian 14:46, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep somewhat interesting, but the article needs to be improved. -- MisterHand 17:18, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete non encyclopedic topic. Gateman1997 18:08, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment. Now that I'm in the process of adding OR to the topic, all NOR comments are moot.  Some of the references take up more than one frame, so for those I'm just linking to the episode. --Crazyswordsman 18:21, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * OR is shorthand for "original research". Trust me, you don't want to say that you're adding OR. =/ --Apostrophe 18:29, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm citing my work, and doing A TON of research, so don't tell me I'm not. --Crazyswordsman 18:31, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * You do realize that it is against policy? No Original Research. --Apostrophe 18:32, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * And on that page it says that gathering information from primary and secondary sources is encouraged. This is"source-based research," which is allowed. --Crazyswordsman 18:43, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I understand that. You stated you were "adding OR"; I felt I needed to point out to you that OR is not allowed on Wikipedia. Just an misunderstanding on both sides, that's all. --Apostrophe 07:43, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep a bit anal for my taste but harmless enough. Jcuk 19:07, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep per Jjay's response. --Naha|(talk) 20:03, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment. I must admit, my record is a bit weak. It's unfortunate I didn't register earlier; I only did so in response to the fact that this is about the third time I had something to say on wikipedia. However, if you wish for this to be deleted, could you inform me why the same... nevermind. I was going to mention Super_Mario_4, but it is up for deletion as well. Anyway, it's up to you, in the end.--Metal Man88 20:39, 21 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Delete: It's not even about refrences to minor characters in the mario universe, it's about various pop culture refrences in a webcomic, and it's not really a verry user friendly page. (when I first clcked on it I had absolutely no idea what it was trying to say) Deathawk 22:08, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment. Here's the plan I have for this unfortunately unpopular page. I will continue to add citations, and if you want to delete it go ahead.  I have the page archived on my user page (so those of you who are interested can visit it) and can edit it at will.  I plan to put in the references to the NC Chronicles, the one part comics (including Ye Old Taco Hut of Horror), then I will move on to the Deathmatches, Shorts, Flash Movies, Election flyers, and finally, the unpublished Mushroom Wars remake Alph made on the NC Forum.  Once that is all said and done, I will email it to Jay and see if he can put it up on the site. --Crazyswordsman 00:37, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep I recommend (as mentioned above) that this list be trimmed to the more important element from the series. Dread Lord C y b e r S k u l l ✎☠ 15:58, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
 * And as I've already said above, that's already on Neglected Mario Characters. --Apostrophe 07:59, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. An article of links is not encyclopedic. SorryGuy 22:19, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
 * It's a good thing that this isn't an article of links, then. Factitious 20:34, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Needs cleanup, but since Crazyswordsman's doing a fine job of that already, I see no reason to try to delete this. Obscure does not imply unencyclopedic. Factitious 20:34, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment Well, I took a tally and it's about a 14-11 vote to delete the article. With about a day left for deliberation, I think I will just concede defeat (unless there are at least four more people that want the article to stay up). - SPKx 01:20, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't 14-11 be "no consensus, default to keep"? This isn't a vote. J•A•K 16:34, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete and do not merge: an utterly sub-trivial collection of external links. -Sean Curtin 04:46, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep: If it's not OR, or vanity, it seems reasonable to keep. As pointed out, you get rather excessive lists on other topics, why not this one? J•A•K 16:34, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete - OMG, I cannot believe that this article actually exists. OK, so list of cultural references in the pokemon series was a keeper, well the pokemon series is watched by tens of thousands of people at least, and has millions of fans.  This is a sprite comic.  Totally unnotable cruftiness.  In the scale of notability where does Neglected Mario Characters fit?  I'm going to go out on a whim here, and say it's less notable than The Thick of It or indeed, any series that has been running on TV on a major channel.  Are the "keepers" here claiming that every TV show, ever is notable enough to have its own "cultural references" article, or every published book could have its own cultural references article.  People have argued over whether Daniel Brandt or Cyrus Farivar are notable, compared to this, they're kings of the world. - Hahnchen 02:29, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment Since no one has responded to this, I just wanted to point out again that Characters_of_Bob_and_George is a list similar to this one based on a similar sprite comic. I don't see the difference that allows Characters_of_Bob_and_George to remain on Wiki while this one is up for deletion.  I'm just curious where the line is drawn.  I know my site (NC) isn't as popular as BnG, but they have both been accepted as suitable web comics to feature at Wikipedia.  Also, just to make it clear, I'm not forcably trying to push an article about my site on Wikipedia.  Whatever is ultimately decided about this article is cool with me.  I'm just curious about the standards of Wiki between this article and Characters_of_Bob_and_George.  Just for my own curiousity.  Thanks.-jay Jay Resop 18:33, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I think the difference lies in the difference between "characters" and "cultural references." Characters are easily verifiable and it is easy to decide what is significant enough for an article. Also, I would argue that they are more the "heart" of the webcomic. Cultural references, on the other hand, are generally going to form a boundless list of unrelated things, which probably aren't of interest to many people outside of the initial creator. It's impossible to decide which are verifiably significant enough to warrant consideration. Also, they seem more tangential to any discussion of "What is Neglected Mario Characters?" If the characters section on the main article got too big, I don't think many would argue with spinning that off as has been done with Bob and George. (ESkog)(Talk) 19:48, 29 December 2005 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.