Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Episodes of Off Menu With Ed Gamble and James Acaster


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Off Menu with Ed Gamble and James Acaster. For editors who discussed WP:NLIST, opinion is that this list doesn't meet those guidelines. I have chosen to change this article into a redirect rather than deleting the article in case there is an RFC that provides guidance on whether or not the project should have lists of podcast episodes. I hope that an RFC asking this question is initiated by interested editors so that the guidelines are clearer.

Please do not revert this redirection. If this becomes a problem, I anticipate a future, 2nd AFD where the decision is deletion. Focus on the RFC instead. Liz Read! Talk! 01:41, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

List of Episodes of Off Menu With Ed Gamble and James Acaster

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Article content deleted from Off Menu with Ed Gamble and James Acaster citing NOTDIRECTORY and other similar policies. IP and red linked editors reacted negatively. This article created by red linked editor to make WP: POINT in y opinion. Article is listicle with more in common with Wikia/Fandom than Wikipedia. Article exists on Off Menu Reddit after initial deletion doktorb wordsdeeds 08:23, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Entertainment, Lists,  and United Kingdom.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 08:30, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete. A huge, huge list of episodes of a podcast, 165 references are completely WP:PRIMARY. That Off Menu with Ed Gamble and James Acaster is notable doesn't mean the average Wikipedia reader would like to know that actor Michael McKean had "Cashew tomato cream soup (from Shopsin's)" as a starter. Suitable for wikia/Fandom (or reddit, apparently), not for Wikipedia. soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 08:59, 17 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Keep I totally disagree with previous comments. Podcasts have no standard policy, but large numbers of podcasts do include episode lists. These include Revisionist History, Welcome to Night Vale, RHLSTP, and The Adam Buxton Podcast to name a few. Also - the average Wikipedia user would want to know the food preferences of major celebrities, I think - including Hollywood A-listers (such as Taron Egerton, Timothy Spall, Edgar Wright, Martin Freeman), as well as important figures in the world of food (such as Jamie Oliver, Paul Hollywood, Ainsley Harriott, Tom Kerridge). This is not just trivia. Galanthis (talk) 09:54, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Also, on the references issue; what is the policy for TV? For example, the article for List of The Graham Norton Show episodes is unreferenced - why is that not an issue, but it is an issue here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Galanthis (talk • contribs) 10:00, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi, see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. We're not discussing all those other shows, we're talking about this one. And who knows, maybe this discussion will lead to some precedence to get rid of that stuff too. Wikipedia is written for a general audience and not for people even remotely familiar with this podcast. I'd argue that the food preferences of Hollywood A-listers is a very fine example of trivia. And furthermore, this list doesn't even state what those preferences might be, just what some person had to eat and drink on a particular day. soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 10:10, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
 * There is simply no policy set in stone for podcasts, though. The best we have is TV or radio, but I could find plenty of 'List of XYZ' for TV and radio shows that are totally unreferenced. Also, this list isn't what the person chose on a particular day - it is a description of their favourite meal. I think the average Wikipedia user would want to know Jamie Oliver's favourite meal! He is a world famous chef! Galanthis (talk) 10:18, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
 * You're right, Wikipedia is not set in stone, but just because there isn't a specific podcast guideline does somehow mean we can keep this kind of listings. Again, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. You really don't have to bring up the many, many articles on Wikipedia we need to improve. There's only so much we can do. Please see WP:ARGUMENTSTOAVOID. That Jamie Oliver is a famous chef and Edgar Wright a famous film director does not mean Wikipedia needs to cover their favorite meals, just because of their WP:POPULARITY. soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 10:27, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
 * MOS:TVEPISODELIST is the most similar style guide to use. It states that episode listing should "be reliably sourced, either from the opening/closing credits or from secondary sources"; this is the approach taken here, with references to the transcript for each episode. In addition "a summary of the plot can be included and should be brief (100–200 words)". Similarly, this approach is also taken here (with the plot being the meals that each guest would have). Looking instead at WP:LISTPEOPLE, for the notability of guests themselves; nearly all guests are blue-linked rather than red-linked, and they have all verifiably been a guest on the podcast. Galanthis (talk) 15:17, 18 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Keep. I'd like to refute a few points made above.


 * 1. The article was not created to make a WP:POINT, the creation of this article was suggested in the talk page of the main article and no one (except me) raised any objections. I'm in complete agreement this table has no place in the main article which should provide a brief overview of the show, and it was soetermans  who originally mentioned a page listing episodes over on the main talk page as a reason to remove the list from there.


 * 2. The fact there are other podcasts with episode listing IS pertinent to the discussion. These are similar pages, for similarly notable shows, that are actively maintained without objection. See WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS: " In consideration of precedent and consistency, though, identifying articles of the same nature that have been established and continue to exist on Wikipedia may provide extremely important insight" and "arguing consistency is not wrong - it is to be preferred"


 * 3. The lack of a clear policy for podcasts means all we have to base decisions on is established precedent and similar guidelines (like for TV shows). Your argument that if such a policy did exist it might support deleting similar content across Wikipedia cuts both ways; it might expressly support such content WP:CITINGGREATERPROBLEMS. The reliance of consensus and established precedent is well established in notability guidelines WP:BIO, and once again, is referenced in WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS.


 * 4. Rather than delete the page, suggest constructive ways to improve it. Might it be better if it fit the MOS:TVEPISODELIST more exactly? A list episodes, air dates and guests organised by season, with the "plot" content removed would fit very well with the guideline, provide a valuable reference, and remove the "trivia". This is, perhaps, more in the spirit of WP:NOTPLOT, although I'd certainly argue the table as it currently exists is a summary.


 * 5. I don't at all feel that the WP:NOTDIRECTORY argument holds water. As per WP:STANDALONE this list arguably passes the notability criteria and certainly passes the short, complete criteria coming in at 18kb, well below the suggested test of 32kb. is much, much larger than I thought. I redact this argument.


 * I think Galanthis has already refuted the arguments about primary citations and notability, I won't repeat their arguments.


 * Finally, while we're taking about WP:ARGUMENTSTOAVOID, the fact I am "red linked" is not germane and suggesting the article was created in bad faith because of this violates the 4th of the WP:5P.
 * The talk page on the main article is quickly turning into a cesspit I regret wading into, let's keep the discussion here focused on policy.

Natrilix (talk) 15:30, 20 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Hi, the listing was removed and the main article has been edit protected twice to keep anon IPs adding the listing back in. At Talk:Off Menu with Ed Gamble and James Acaster it was you who said that reddit is a more suitable home for the listing. I in fact suggested a small section like WTF with Marc Maron, to mention actual noteworthy episodes, but you've made a 180 and now do think it should stay. I'd argue that a separate article was not the best idea without some form of consensus.


 * I suggested it before, but maybe a request for comment is a good idea. We can ask the community at large for input whether podcast articles should have large episode listings or separate listicles like this one are appropriate for Wikipedia.


 * I can see you created your userpage with the edit summary "I'm a very occasional Wikipedia editor. By having a talk page, and thus a blue link, I hope to have my small contributions taken more seriously." should definitely assume good faith in the matter. Speaking for myself, I take any editor's contributions seriously, be they anonymous, brand new or experienced.  soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 16:31, 20 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Also, speaking of respecting another editor, you are of course completely entitled to your own opinion and you can change it as much as you like! :) soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 17:09, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I apologise for pointing out your red link. At the time a lot of IP address editors were causing problems and I linked you with them. doktorb wordsdeeds 17:48, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Apology accepted, and sorry for getting annoyed. Seeing what has happened on that page since I very much understand why you'd think this was an insincere attempt to multiply controversy. I appreciate now this wasn't the best move without consensus, but I was swayed by  and . I do think there is a place for listings of episodes, and even for tightly summarised "plots" within those lists. This article, as it exists, is not exactly a tight summary.
 * I also agree request for comment is a great idea. This isn't the last time this argument will be had, and if we can forge firm consensus here it would become broadly applicable for other podcast listings. Might even be the basis for an official guideline? Natrilix (talk) 04:15, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Agree with this broadly; an RfC in order to firm up guidelines for podcasts would certainly be helpful (there doesn't seem to be much standardization at the moment).  Galanthis (talk) 09:45, 21 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Comment The topic of whether or not episode lists are appropriate for inclusion on Wikipedia has been discussed a couple of times at the WikiProject. For instance, Archive 2 and Archive 9. There are also a couple times that specific episode lists have been discussed at the WikiProject such as Archive 3: The Nerdist Podcast and Archive 3: Film Sack. Checking some of the lists at Category:Lists of podcast episodes shows that there have been a few discussions such as Film Sack, The Nerdist Podcast,  Dr. Floyd, The Ricky Gervais Show, Stuff You Should Know, and Employee of the Month.


 * I know deletion discussions are not cleanup, but I think it's worth mentioning that episode lists are notorious for copyright infringement (i.e. My Favorite Murder) and for containing tons of external links in the list--often times containing external links to every single episode (i.e. The Memory Palace). In this case, every single episode has a primary reference, which isn't much better.


 * WP:NLIST states that a list topic is notable "if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources." Doing a few Google searches reveals that it is not uncommon for sources to recommend and review groupings of episodes from a particular podcast. For instance, Stuff You Should Know, WTF with Marc Maron, The Joe Rogan Experience, My Favorite Murder, and Criminal. Also, Podcast Review—a channel of LA Review of Books—which is one of the only relatively reliable sources that exclusively covers podcasts has done quite a few groupings of episodes.          It's also not uncommon for sources to review individual episodes of podcasts.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, RL0919 (talk) 16:05, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
 * As of right now, the only sources cited in this list are primary sources and no one has cited any sources in this discussion. Do any reliable secondary sources discuss this podcast's episodes as a group? TipsyElephant (talk) 15:09, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Delete. Whether other podcasts get reviewed is not the question. This article is at least 99% sourced to primary sources with few if any secondary sources. This information appears elsewhere, word-for-word, on the podcast's official Reddit page, which raises a question in my mind as to whether this article could be a copyright violation. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 21:08, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry, there was discussion of an RFC and previous precedents and I felt that it provided context, but I suppose it was unnecessary. TipsyElephant (talk) 01:51, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
 * No problem. Arguably it supports my point. If other podcasts have their episodes reviewed, then either we should expect this article to have secondary sources and this article is insufficiently sourced, or this podcast is less notable than the ones that get reviewed and thus there is less need to have an article listing its episodes in great detail. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 06:04, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
 * To be fair, the reddit page was copied from here, not the other way around, so there's no issue with copyright. I can't find any sources listing episodes as described above, and I think it represents a fair test. Natrilix (talk) 10:25, 28 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Keep This seems like an acceptable option; normally when we have articles about TV shows, we'd create a new article for episode lists by season, to avoid having the main TV show article get too long. I think the same operating procedure can be use here. Oaktree b (talk) 21:24, 24 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Keep per Natrilix, I really think it is clear that there is a place for this on wikipedia MrStoofer (talk) 12:17, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Please focus on policy based arguments, such as whether this meets WP:NLIST or not. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Legoktm (talk) 01:24, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete the list does not pass WP:NLIST and possibly violates one or more criteria of WP:NOT. None of the individual episodes are notable and the episodes are not discussed in reliable secondary sources as a group or set. This is not a WP:LISTPEOPLE as mentioned above, it is explicitly a list of episodes and the episodes do not WP:INHERIT notability from their guests. Podcasts are not television shows, but if we're going to compare, it might be worth taking a look at some Category:FL-Class television articles. From what I can tell most of these have independently notable episodes, reliable secondary sources, or both. I don't see either of those things for this list of podcast episodes. TipsyElephant (talk) 14:10, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Giving WP:LISTPEOPLE another read and I see the note at the bottom that says "the guidance in this section is particularly applicable to people but applies to lists in general". So my statement regarding whether this is a list of people or a list of episodes doesn't entirely work, but I think it's stil fair to say that the episodes don't inherit notability from their guests. TipsyElephant (talk) 14:16, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Delete - There is almost no sourced content in the article, only a small handful of examples listed are actually blue-linked (and most of those are not even links to actual articles on the supposed subject), and half of the article is on random episodes. that are not "episodes of Off Menu With Ed Gamble and James Acaster". I am honestly not seeing anything that is actually salvageable here. CPORfan (talk) 14:32, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment by sockpuppet struck through. soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 04:14, 6 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Comment. As we've been asked to address WP:NLIST, I note that WP:NLIST says, "One accepted reason why a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources, per the above guidelines; notable list topics are appropriate for a stand-alone list." What "independent reliable sources" have discussed the episodes of this podcast? There is nothing in this article that qualifies as an independent source. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 22:13, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
 * As an aside, if this article winds up being kept, the capitalization of the title needs to be fixed. It would more properly be List of episodes of Off Menu with Ed Gamble and James Acaster. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 05:48, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Merge with Off Menu with Ed Gamble and James Acaster The article itself fails GNG. I think merging would be good since the article is copied from other webistes. `~HelpingWorld~` (👽🛸) 21:20, 8 December 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.