Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of FA Cup giant-killings 1


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was no consensus. a couple of the delete votes seem like it's a cleanup concern, which AFD isn't for, deal with it in the talkSecret account 02:23, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

List of FA Cup giant-killings

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This article started off as part of the main FA Cup page before being split off. This section was always the most problematic part of the FA Cup article. There are results which are unquestionably famous shocks e.g. Sutton Utd beating Coventry in 1988 or Sunderland beating Leeds in 1973, but as one moves further down the question of what should and shouldn't be included is a grey area. Attempts were made on the FA Cup talkpage to establish criteria based on the difference between the teams but that criteria automatically excludes games like the Sunderland Leeds one above. Generally what happens with the article/list is that every so often someone adds their favourite teams results - results which may be mild surprises in the short term but are not notable in the long run. That highlights the whole problem with such a list: just like a list of "100 best songs" it will always be based on completely subjective and arbitrary criteria and thus will forever fail to meet WP:VERIFY being based on the personal prejudices of editors. Valenciano 10:24, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Commment the criteria has been added - beaten opposition who played at least two divisions higher. That's pretty clear to me, but I don't know if this is enyclopedic enough to warrant a keep! Lugnuts 12:09, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of football (soccer) related deletions. ChrisTheDude 12:00, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Weak keep if only because it now has an objective criterion & is referenced, and I've put a lot of work into keeping it that way after 'creating' the article by splitting off a very ad hoc list from the FA Cup article. I still have my doubts on certain aspects - further discussion on what objectively makes a "giant-killing", and whether the title is appropriate, is very welcome. Qwghlm 12:10, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Unquestionably you made a good effort with the list but it doesn't alter its subjective nature. The 'reference' is just one guy's AOL page - his POV and therefore not a reliable source. As he admits on it himself in his opening line: "There is always going to be huge debate concerning the greatest ever F A Cup giant killing acts and no two people will ever put together a top ten that agrees." Precisely my point. A two division gap criteria will be completely arbitrary and subjective. Under current criteria Sunderland beating Leeds in 1973 isn't in, while a Unibond league side beating a conference side (something that happens pretty much every season) would be in. I really can't see how to meet WP:VERIFY Valenciano 13:41, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - exactly. Giant-killing surely implies a top division side, or maybe, a non-league side beating a highish (at least Lge One maybe just Championship) other league team. I've just put a search into google, and cannot think of anything other than delete simply because it's always going to be a POV list, as relevant as it is. Unless some verifiable source can be found, or the list simply be put back on the main FA Cup page in prose format, with full references for each game. Peanut4 13:47, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment going by those criteria, this list is vastly incomplete. Do we include all qualifying rounds, when a team from a level 9 league beats from level 7, etc, etc? The criteria needs to be tightened. I also suspect several lge 2 defeats of championship sides (or appropriately previous incantations) are absent from the list. Sunderland-Leeds is one of the greatest FA Cups (WP:POV !) but doesn't meet the criteria. Peanut4 13:26, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment West Ham 1 Arsenal 0 1980. (Even more WP:POV !). Last second division team to win the FA Cup. Just goes to show how subjective and not encyclopedic this article would have to be to be of any relevance. Therefore has to be a regrettable delete. Hammer1980 ·talk 17:55, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - I wouldn't say this is currently referenced to a Reliable Source. - fchd 13:38, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment I'm pretty sure the News of the World Football Annual has a section headed "famous FA Cup shock results" or something similar. That's a potential source, but wouldn't it be a copyvio if we just reproduced their list.....? ChrisTheDude 15:33, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete - it will never be possible to define the criteria tightly enough; e.g., most of the early matches were not really giant killings. In its heyday the Southern League was almost as strong as the Football League; certainly stronger than the then Second Division which is how-come there were so many "upsets" involving SL clubs prior to 1914. Clearly, however, the two matches in the 1970s involving SL clubs were upsets. As said above, the reference source quoted is hardly the most reliable anyhow.--Daemonic Kangaroo 16:47, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete - how does one define 'giantkilling'? - two divisions difference is not enough, that is happening more and more a the bigger teams field weaker, youth-filled sides. GiantSnowman 20:04, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep but with more restrictive criteria for inclusion. Giant killing is definitely a notable phenomenon - it is an aspect of the FA Cup which is widely reported by the media, and the potential for giant killing is often used by TV companies in deciding which matches to broadcast. I would favour criteria on the lines of:
 * Top division (Premiership or old Football League Division one) teams beaten by a team two or more divisions lower.
 * Other Football League teams beaten by teams three or more divisions lower.
 * This would exclude matches between non-league teams. I also think that consideration of Sunderland v Leeds is irrelevant. That was a surprise result but could hardly be called a giant killing in the usual sense of the word. Phil Bridger 15:10, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree and hence why it's POV. Leeds were giants of English and European football in the 1970s and hence giant-killing in every sense of the word. FA Cup giant-killing is notable but I'm not sure a list of such results can be anything other than WP:POV. Peanut4 17:08, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - We could indeed establish criteria, a three division gap in the third round or later and a one division gap for the final would probably cover most results. But the point here is it's not just a case of us agreeing criteria, as that's original research. we need to have criteria which is supported by multiple independent sources and there is sich widespread disagreement in those that it just won't work. Attempts have been made for the past two years to establish such criteria and the lack of agreement on it highlights the fact that no such consensus exists that can be supported by reliable sources. Having spent two years trying to keep some kind of logic in the list I've reluctantly come to the conclusion that it's a lost cause. For example I've removed Havant's win over Notts county twice in the last two days. Notts County a giant? Don't think so but that's my POV and that's why unfortunately scrapping it is the only option. Valenciano 20:05, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - there is a featured list, List of important operas, which has arbitrary criteria decided by consensus (essentially, every opera on that list has to be on a specific number of sources from a given list, which was decided as arbitrarily as the criteria proposed here). There is a danger in taking WP:OR too literally. ugen64 (talk) 20:57, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete above arguments have settled my feelings on this on unfortunately a delete, but can someone put the info into a new, improved section on the FA Cup page, with perhaps an additional section for shocks in the final - for one Wimbledon - Liverpool in 1988 were teams from the same division. Peanut4 20:14, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete this article, but most of the info would be an important part of the FA Cup article in a slimmer form. I accept the points about the criteria problems previously, but a fresh try at it would be good. Ref (chew) (do) 15:51, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.