Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Great Britain and Ireland PGA Cup golfers


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. There are only three participants after two relists, and I don't see more people coming because the discussion has burned out. The opinions are evenly split. Guerillero Parlez Moi 08:48, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

List of Great Britain and Ireland PGA Cup golfers
I am also nominating the following related page because for the same reason:


 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

These pages clearly fail WP:NLIST. I have no clue how they got past administrators originally. Oogglywoogly (talk) 02:17, 22 July 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
 * Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Articles for deletion/Log/2022 July 22.  —cyberbot I   Talk to my owner :Online 02:35, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Lists of people, Golf, Ireland, United Kingdom, England, Northern Ireland, Scotland,  and Wales. jp×g 03:44, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment It'd be useful to know why specifically it fails NLIST. Personally I find NLIST a bit unclear. Doesn't the fact that the search "PGA Cup player" turns up a reasonably long list mean that the topic is notable, eg "Bevan, a two-time PGA Cup player" https://www.pga.info/news/captain-bevan-upbeat-as-first-three-players-for-pga-cup-team-revealed/ ? Having said that, I'm inclined to think that the lists would be better simply being added to the main article PGA Cup in a more compact style. Nigej (talk) 04:55, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Probably the same is true for, say, List of Continental Europe Seve Trophy golfers where the main article Seve Trophy is short enough (and not likely to get much larger) that the lists could be added there. Nigej (talk) 05:52, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Weak keep. I'd argue that since they are essentially a split from PGA Cup (an article that would become unwieldy with the lists merged), they aren't standalone lists so NLIST doesn't apply. The real question is whether listing PGA Cup players is encyclopedic or violates NOT in some way. I lean towards the lists being ok but could be swayed by a convincing argument. It may be useful to create the corresponding category tree for navigation. wjematherplease leave a message... 20:42, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure they would make it unwieldy. Removing the table aspect and turning it into a multi-column list would work ok I think. Nigej (talk) 17:28, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
 * If is is determined that the content is encyclopedic but not in these lists, then merge is an appropriate WP:ATD. wjematherplease leave a message... 09:45, 26 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Comment Some users have questions why this defies WP:NLIST. When I proposed the PGA Cup pages for deletion I was specifically thinking about List of Canadian winners on the PGA and LPGA Tours, a page I successfully proposed for deletion earlier this year. Other users referenced WP:NLIST as a guideline to suggest deletion. I'm not saying the PGA Cup members list and Canadian list are identical but, in my opinion, they are similarly indulgent list pages with little context to suggest why they are valuable. With the PGA Cup, I'm sort of surprised this event has a page at all. It's a little known tournament between club professionals. There are only four or five third-party sources on the event's page - enough to meet our standards but barely. On these list pages, the overwhelming majority of golfers don't even have Wikipedia pages. Even though I tend to focus on obscure stuff here, I'm just not sure why we care about this event at all. And in general I thought it was our mission to get away from these metastasizing statistical tables and lists and focus more on substantive issues (i.e. prose). Instead, another list!
 * Oogglywoogly (talk) 05:02, 25 July 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly


 * As to notability of the golfers, NLIST specifically says "Because the group or set is notable, the individual items in the list do not need to be independently notable" and anyway, I suspect some of the red-linked golfers are notable. As to the event, I think the two PGAs (British and US) would be very disappointed at you being so dismissive of it, which they regard as a showcase event, a sort of Club Pros Ryder Cup. As to coverage see eg this https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=0_89AAAAIBAJ&pg=4332%2C5005381 from 1984 where coverage is ahead of that for the second round of the Dutch Open. Similar coverage in the London papers (Telegraph, Guardian). Or this from 1986 https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=JLZAAAAAIBAJ&pg=3004%2C5409506 and this https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=jg01AAAAIBAJ&pg=2319%2C5910943 from 1988. The other issue is that these sort of lists are meant to be an aid for editors writing articles, as they appear in the "What Links Here" list, so aren't necessarily going to be too exciting as articles in their own right. Nigej (talk) 11:05, 25 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Sorry if I came across as rude or dismissive in the most recent post and in other posts. I do think the PGA Cup is a notable event and worthy of a page. But I also think it is a somewhat obscure event and I'm not sure if it really needs an independent page that lists every player that has ever played in the event. We do have players lists pages for other events like the Ryder Cup but the Ryder Cup is obviously much, much better known event than the PGA Cup. Meanwhile major championships like the Masters or U.S. Open - perhaps the two most important tournaments in the history of golf - have no player lists.
 * You also mention how these pages are useful to editors. Personally I have used your players lists on Australian Men's Interstate Teams Matches and found it very helpful. But I'm not sure if usefulness is a suitable criterion for a published page in an encyclopedia. It may be worthwhile if a user keeps lists like these in a sandbox for reference but I'm not sure if they should be published. Overall, I think we should think about what the reader wants first, not the editor.
 * Oogglywoogly (talk) 02:57, 26 July 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
 * As I said above, I think you are right here, see WP:NOTPAPER. The content can readily be added to the parent article and this article deleted. We can delete this one, WP:PROD the US one. As I noted above I think we can PROD the Seve Trophy lists too (and perhaps others). Nigej (talk) 05:21, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * This nom is for both lists. If we are going to merge, then the lists should remain as redirects for attribution. wjematherplease leave a message... 09:42, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * True, somehow I missed the US article. Nigej (talk) 13:14, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Thank you Nigej and wjemather  for your responses. Just to be clear, could we confirm for administrators that we want to delete these list pages and put this information on the main page (i.e. PGA Cup). Thanks, Oogglywoogly (talk) 19:28, 28 July 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly Relisting comment: I would like to see confirmation, is there a proposal to merge these two articles to PGA Cup? I've read over the discussion but a lot of it is about list standards and not about the outcome you are seeking here. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 02:42, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Guerillero  Parlez Moi 18:08, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Merge/Redirect Merge content of the two articles into PGA Cup (in more condensed form) and then redirect there to maintain attribution. Nigej (talk) 12:51, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment I've taken the liberty of doing the merge already. See PGA Cup. Nigej (talk) 10:43, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Comment I feel like we have enough responses to warrant a decision (and specifically a deletion decision). I mean even the creator of these pages, Nigej, supports their deletion and integration onto the main page. Nonetheless, I have written a statement on the WikiProject Golf's talk page to prompt other members to respond on this deletion page. It would be nice if they responded beneath. Oogglywoogly (talk) 20:11, 11 August 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
 * Please note, merging and redirecting is not deletion. Also, even reduced, I'm still concerned about the proportion of the article taken up by these lists and leaving them split could be better; perhaps that could be done in a single List of PGA Cup golfers article. Unless someone actually thinks the content should be deleted, this discussion could be closed and further discussion on the solution (i.e. merge or not) could be done elsewhere. wjematherplease leave a message... 07:46, 12 August 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.