Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Hollywood Game Night episodes


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. j⚛e deckertalk 07:13, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

List of Hollywood Game Night episodes

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WP:LISTCRUFT article showing by-episode television ratings and contestants appearing on each episode. Article does not contain information that meets guidelines in WP:EPISODE (specifically, "Such pages must still be notable, and contain out-of-universe context, and not merely be a list of episode titles or cast and crew: Wikipedia is not a directory.") Contestant prizes and episode results are all unsourced.

This is not a television series with fictional plot synopses that is appropriate to be chronicled in an article, and the specific details of results from a television game show episode do not meet WP:GNG.

Any scheduling information is already detailed in Hollywood Game Night. AldezD (talk) 18:52, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:31, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:31, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:31, 2 June 2014 (UTC)


 * As the nom notes, in contrast with dramatic TV series we don't normally include episode by episode details for game shows (based on past experience from AFD, not from the quoted language from WP:EPISODE above, which doesn't provide any relevant guidance here that I see), and I don't see a reason for questioning that practice here. It's possible someone may present an argument as to why this show, which features celebrities every episode, may merit different treatment, or that there may be secondary source attention for individual episodes (anything is possible). But delete unless that is demonstrated. postdlf (talk) 21:01, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete per nominator, and reasons addressed in other similar AFDs, such as:
 * Articles for deletion/List of Deal or No Deal Special shows
 * Articles for deletion/List of Deal or No Deal (U.S. game show) episodes
 * Articles for deletion/List of Figure It Out episodes
 * Articles for deletion/List of BrainSurge episodes
 * Articles for deletion/List of The Chase (UK game show) episodes
 * Individual episode results are not notable enough for their own article and, in my opinion, would indeed fall under WP:LISTCRUFT. --Bentvfan54321 (talk) 01:51, 3 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep: This is a specific program format called a panel show, where the participants are celebrities. Panel shows have episode pages identifying the panelists. This can ultimately lead to identifying who a show's regular panelists are, whether certain team captains or panelists have a tendency to win or do poorly, which celebrities appear frequently on panel shows, etc. Panel show fans frequently ask questions like, "what was that episode where celebrity A told celebrity B this," and Wikipedia episode lists are the key to finding the answer. This is different from a game show where no one really cares what the contestants are named, or a fictional show without plot summaries where the actors are essentially the same every episode. Here are examples of panel show episode pages:
 * List of QI episodes (A featured list, one of "what we believe to be the best lists in Wikipedia.")
 * List of Mock the Week episodes
 * List of Have I Got News for You episodes
 * List of 8 Out of 10 Cats episodes
 * List of Would I Lie to You? episodes
 * List of Never Mind the Buzzcocks episodes
 * List of A League of Their Own episodes
 * List of @midnight episodes

Can you spot a significant difference between the QI page and the Hollywood Game Night page that accounts for the extreme contrast of one being a featured list and the other being eligible for deletion? Pdxuser (talk) 06:27, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
 * WP:OTHERSTUFF is not a valid Keep argument. Hollywood Game Night is not a panel game, and this article is nothing more than an unsourced cruft directory list of guests and contestant winnings (with the exception of television ratings for each episode, which are sourced—the bulk of the article remains unverified). What fans of the show frequently ask does not negate guidelines in WP:GNG and WP:EPISODE. The episodes themselves are not notable, and contain no out-of-universe context. The featured status of the List of QI episodes article (and the related child articles for each season) has no bearing on this article's content, notability or ability to meet WP guidelines, and there is a clear difference in content between those articles and this article nominated for deletion. Regarding your WP:OTHERSTUFF argument, the same holds true for the other articles you linked. AldezD (talk) 11:34, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
 * In what way is HGN not a panel game? It's celebrities playing parlor games. If the host asked them to identify someone's occupation, it would suddenly be What's My Line. Is it because the panelists are seated on couches rather than seated behind desks? Because the earliest TV panel shows were on couches: They were charades shows. ::WP:COPYVIO link removed:: with Dick Van Dyke and Mary Tyler Moore. There's a significant difference between "other stuff exists" and "this is an example of the best of Wikipedia, after a consensus decision, and is the demonstrated consistent practice for this type of article." Can you explain why the list of QI episodes is the "best of Wikipedia," but this virtually identical list shouldn't exist? Pdxuser (talk) 22:49, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
 * A lot of AldezD's response to you is irrelevant (e.g., "out-of-universe" has no meaning outside of dramatized fiction, and regardless episode numbers, air dates, cast lists, and audience ratings would all qualify as "out-of-universe" information even if we were dealing with a list of that kind), and comparisons can be useful particularly if we're saying "we never keep game show episode lists" and you point to one that has passed a significant community review. I agree with you this seems to be a panel game. But I don't know why that necessary matters. I'm not aware of any previous discussions regarding using that alone for a basis for distinguishing between encyclopedic and nonencyclopedic lists of game show episodes, nor do I know if that's really the best way to separate the lists you point to (assuming the community would think they are valid) from ones we regularly delete. Are there other deletion discussions you can point to in which such lists were kept, on the basis that they are for a panel game, or some other basis? postdlf (talk) 00:09, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Out-of-universe context would be individual episodes being covered in a WP:V third-party, reliable source. This article is unreferenced WP:LISTCRUFT. The program's status as/as not a panel game has no bearing on an episode list meeting WP:GNG and WP:EPISODE. List of QI episodes has been part of featured content on WP—but as WP:OTHERSTUFF states, that does not mean List of Hollywood Game Night episodes meets WP:GNG/WP:EPISODE. AldezD (talk) 02:16, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
 * HGN actually has 29 references. They're mostly verification for the ratings figures, but that's also true of community-approved featured lists like those for 24, Arrested Development, Grey's Anatomy, Smallville and SpongeBob SquarePants, among others. Would adding links to TV Guide verifying which celebrities appeared be necessary? Pdxuser (talk) 04:46, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know if such discussions have occurred. The argument and distinction I would make is that the participants in a game show are not noteworthy. The participants in a panel show are. And while it's the plot that may be most notable about an episode of a fictional show where the main cast doesn't change, it is the changing cast — the celebrity panel — that is most notable about an episode of a panel show. For example, TV Guide's summaries of Hollywood Game Night say which celebrities are on the show, while the summaries for another NBC show, Parks and Recreation, are about the plot. The way panel shows are treated by TV Guide is more like the way talk shows are treated than the way game shows are treated. And it turns out that Wikipedia, too, treats panel shows and talk shows similarly. Wikipedia does include lists for talk show episodes, such as with The Tonight Show with Johnny, Jay and Jimmy, and Late Night with Conan, Jimmy and Seth. Perhaps this is WP:OTHERSTUFF, but neither WP:OTHERSTUFF nor WP:LISTCRUFT are policies or guidelines, and it does appear now that episode lists are consistently kept for both panel shows and talk shows where the primary interest is in which celebrities appeared on the show. Pdxuser (talk) 04:46, 11 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete, I do agree that this is listcruft, and that cataloguing everyone that appears on every episode is excessive detail. Happy for it to be temporarily userified so that the data can be moved to a more appropriate location, such as tviv.org.  Lankiveil (speak to me) 03:58, 14 June 2014 (UTC).
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.