Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish American criminals and victims


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result of the debate was DELETE. -Splash talk 19:19, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

List of Jewish American criminals and victims
Initially listed under prod, the tag was removed and then replaced within 24 hours. I've brought it here for a proper evaluation, since the rules of prod specify that the tag cannot be replaced when removed by another user. I'm leaving messages on the users talk pages as well. BTW, I'm neutral on the question. JGF Wilks 17:30, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Jerry Jones 22:07, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. I'm hard-pressed trying to figure out what use this article would be. Aplomado - UTC 17:48, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Strong delete. Like all such lists, it creates issues of verifiability, and is essentially indiscriminate (ie, there is no evidence that these people have similar views on Judaism, observe it to the same degree in their lives, regard themselves as Jewish, don't share other ethnicities as well as a connection to being Jewish, etc.)  So, there is no meaning, no encyclopedic reason to group these people together.  Slowmover 17:55, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete unmaintainable and pointless list, POV-bait. Sandstein 18:05, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete per all. Bucketsofg 19:33, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete because there is no objective criteria for inclusion or exclusion and we have verifiability issues. Isn't every person who invested in these Enron-type companies a "victim" so any who are also (verifiably) Jewish get added to the list? No usefulness for that. As for the criminal side, there was certainly Jewish-run organized crime rings (equivalent to the Italian mafia), a list of those players may be encyclopedic and useful, but this is a collection of crooks of varying decrees of culpability and Jewishness -- moreover, I find no evidence in the biographies of Sarah Jane Moore and the Menendez brothers that they are even faintly Jewish. Carlossuarez46 20:32, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Strong Delete Nobody makes list of Christian or Islamic criminals, why should a list of Jewish criminals be made? This is absurd and this page should be deleted ASAP.--GorillazFanAdam 21:35, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. It's taken me a while to realise what I feel about this page. I think I can see merit in a page that attempted to list people who were victims because they were Jewish (though I'm aware that verification might often be difficult) and that similar lists of victimization because of different creeds, lifestyle, political views etc. might be created could have a place. This list is not such a list. Any list that fixes on this or other character attributes is arbitary (at best) and potentially inflammatory at worst. No longer neutral. JGF Wilks 22:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Strong Delete unencyclopedic inflammatory offensive Funky Monkey 23:11, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment. What disappoints me is that we couldn't get this kind of consensus on the List of Muslim athletes just a few days ago. Slowmover 23:23, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete.Inflammatory, innaccurate as to the Menendez brothers and agree pov bait.-- Dakota ~  °  08:20, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Please Preserve! This list has been here for quite a while and only just now has become controversial;  If the argument is simply that Jews shouldn't be singled out for special treatment, then all the many other lists of Jews (writers, businesspeople, etc., etc., etc.) should be deleted as well;  Likewise the lists of American murderers and American criminals also represent a demonizing of a particular group which I as an American could legitimately object to or question the point of, but I don't because (as an American who occasionally jaywalks) I also believe in the right to freedom of expression as enshrined in the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution (which I believe is still in effect, although sometimes I wonder);  Admittedly the external links for the Knoller/Noel dog-mauling case were originally to a decidedly anti-Semitic site, but I have since linked them to the CourtTV site since these two convicted killers of Diane Whipple don't have a Wiki page (although they deserve one, like all the other well-known figures on the list).  As for the Menendez brothers, their father was a Cuban Jew, and after his murder Erik made his way briefly to Israel  where Jews have special automatic citizenship status and therefore won't be extradited to the U.S. to face capital punishment;  Removing this list without removing all the many other lists of Jews and lists of criminals would be caving in to censorship and hypocrisy-- something condemned by a certain well-known New Testament Jewish prophet revered by billions of Christians and Muslims. &mdash;  Someone (not me) went to the trouble of creating this list quite a while ago, and apparently no one objected until now.  Someone also (not me) went to the trouble (last November) of changing it from just "criminals" to "criminals and victims" -- and someone else (me) moved the list of victims to the top of the page to give it more prominence.  Clearly an effort is being made to present the facts as fairly as possible, which suggests anything but "inflammatory" and "anti-Jewish advocacy" as the above commenters claim.  A few of the names I added have already been legitimately removed because they were not actually convicted of a crime, which I admit I should have been more careful about.  It's not a question of whether I personally "like these lists" -- yes, I like the way that Wikipedia is filled with an amazing degree of cross-referencing via hyperlinks, of which the thousands of "these lists" are an integral part.  I also like the way Wikipedia goes to great lengths to present an amazing variety of facts from its famously neutral P.O.V., and provides for lively discussions like this one when disputes inevitably erupt.  If people thought that Wiki was being "sanitized for your protection" from anything icky, they might start to take it all with a grain of salt -- as they do with the dumbed-down information presented through the mainstream media, which is why people are turning more and more to websites like Wiki.  The essential point is that this list is only one of dozens and dozens of Wikipedia lists and categories of Jews, Americans, victims and criminals -- not even counting other ethnicities and nationalities.  There are no fewer than 59 pages in the Category:Lists of Jews alone -- should this be changed to "Lists of Good Jews" only, with a little happy face ☺ next to each entry?  Or perhaps a gold star ★ ?  What makes any of these pages any more or less "meaningful" than any other page in Wikipedia, or on the web?  The question "Why should people who are 'Jewish' be collected together?" can be answered with a rhetorical "Why shouldn't they?"  Wouldn't removing these 59 lists (and all the dozens of sublists therein) be an act of ethnic cleansing?  If you have a problem with a particular name on a particular list, consider removing it while stating exactly why.  But please don't delete (i.e., censor) the entire list unless all such lists are "cleansed" from all of Wikipedia -- G☺d forbid! -- 4.240.123.114 11:38, 16 March 2006 (UTC) -- ElCabezón
 * Comment. You seem to be missing the point.  This isn't about censorship or freedom of expression.  If you like these lists, create one on a website.  The point is what is appropriate for an encyclopedia, which should collect meaningful information and try for objectivity (not POV).  This information is not meaningful.  If it has a meaning, please explain what that is.  Why should people who are "Jewish" be collected together?  Aren't they individuals, with individual views?  They might object to being categorized like this.  Arguing that there are other lists on Wikipedia which are just as problematic does not address the issue.  Slowmover 15:26, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * CommentAs a Jew I take ver heavy offense to an article that singles out Jewish criminals, simply because they are Jewish. --GorillazFanAdam 15:32, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete &mdash; I think there's a weak case to be made for listing positive contributors belonging to a particular faith, as they could have some encyclopedic value in disproving certain preconceptions. But the very title of this page crosses the line into anti-Jewish advocacy. &mdash; RJH 19:23, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete &mdash; per RJH - Newport 12:24, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Preserve. It seems no different than the other 31 "List of Jewish American...." Ted 22:06, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. If Wikipedia is going to have a list of famous victims and criminals, there is no reason to categorize that list based on what religion the victims/criminals happened to have. --Tifego 12:23, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Strong Preserve. Nearly every single list of Americans have criminal lists. Why should it be different for Jews? Its all factually accurate information I dont see the problem. Secondly it is showing some Jews in a unfavorable light so its moving towards censorship. Every ethnic group has it's criminals there is no reason to try to hide it. It is not an attack on Jews.
 * Keep if it becomes reduced to Jewish criminals which would be a reasonable list. JoshuaZ 22:09, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep. I think it would be better to split into a list of criminals vs. a list of murder victims, but the Jewishness of the people in the list IS an interesting and encyclopedic reason for this list to exist.  Jews (and Jewish Americans), just like every other ethnic or religious group, are sometimes interested in who of them are criminals, musicians, actors, etc.  Furthermore, as the criminals are all different types, this would be hard to duplicate with the Category system.  Mangojuice 16:49, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete this and other similar "ethnic/religious criminals" lists. -Will Beback 21:23, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete - I didn't know there were Jewish gangsters, but I agree with Will: we shouldn't have criminal lists based on religion and ethnicity. --Candide, or Optimism 22:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete - unencyclopedic per Snowspinner and others. Johntex\talk 22:44, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete - No value for having this list. --Vsion 00:04, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete - I don't see what value any of these lists have. Gerard Foley 00:52, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment A part of this page was spun off into a new article titled List of Jews in the mafia. The edit summary is "looks like the criminals page is going to be deleted but this I believe should be salvaged because it has encyclopedic value" which appears to be an attempt to bypass AfD. -- JLaTondre 03:36, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment It doesn't look that way to me at all, someone thought that a segment of the list was valid and so is creating a list around that. I don't see an issue. If you think there is a problem, then nominate it for deletion. JoshuaZ 04:53, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Please note that I have not voted on this debate. That's because I don't have a strong opinion either way. However, the entire list is up for debate. Whether someone thought that segment of the list is valid or not, is irrelevant. Extracting a portion of it and creating a new article without even mentioning it on the AfD is not proper. The proper step would have been to edit the existing article and attempt to convience people to vote keep on the revised article. Regardless, my comment is just that, a comment - it's up to the closing admin to decide how to handle it. -- JLaTondre 13:32, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment &mdash; In response to many of these comments, I believe the list has a great deal of encyclopædic "value" for distinguishing the relatively few communist spies who were prosecuted from the many hundreds who were not, and who are thus not listed here. In that regard, this list complements the List of alleged secret agents, the Category:Soviet spies, the Category:Accused Soviet spies, the Category:Cold War spies, the List of Americans in the Venona papers, the Category:Venona Appendix A and the many other pages on the subject of spying (a very serious crime punishable by death, à la Julius & Ethel Rosenberg) that make no such distinction.  Please don't delete!! -- 4.240.213.168 12:00, 21 March 2006 (UTC) -- ElCabezón
 * Comment I find this whole debate very disturbing. There is no reason not to have lists of types of people by nationality: it's not only encyclopedic, it's actually interesting, which is one step higher, and religion should be no different from nationality.  However, I am actually quite offended by the idea that because it's a list of "bad people" we shouldn't have it.  That's POV pushing!  It's one thing if the community thinks none of these lists are worth having... I disagree, but fine.  But it is NOT antisemitism to have a list of Jewish criminals: we have lots of other lists of Jews, for one thing, but even if we didn't, and even if it WAS antisemitism, that can't be a basis for excluding it from a neutral encyclopedia.  I strongly agree with 4.240.213.168's two comments.  Mangojuice 22:03, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment If it matters at all, I'm Jewish and I strongly agree with you. JoshuaZ 22:07, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Do you see lists of Islamic or Christian criminals? If it was a list of criminals by nationality, fine, but there should not be a list of criminals based on their religious views. Oh and JoshuaZ, based on your previous comments I highly doubt you are Jewish. --GorillazFanAdam 01:58, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment' That's nice. And what gave you that idea? JoshuaZ 02:11, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment "If it becomes reduced to Jewish criminals which would be a reasonable list" is what you said, or are (Personal attack removed) --GorillazFanAdam 04:35, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Yes, Jewish victims and criminals would be much too large a list if done properly, and in any situation, criminals are (to my mind) more interesting and arguably more encyclopedic than victims. Victims are passive, generally just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Criminals on the other hand, there is action to it. Its like how Iago is a more interesting character than Othello. I fail to see how my list preference is an indication of my Jewishness. JoshuaZ 04:40, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Indeed, if you wanted a list of American Jewish victims you'd have to list thousands. - Newport 12:34, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Jewishness is not a word, so I do not really understand what you were trying to say in that sentence. A list of Jewish criminals, they already have an anti-semetic site you may be familiar with, called jewatch for that, no need to put propaganda on this site as well. I really would not be suprised if you were a sock puppet for 4.240.213.168. Now please, (Personal attack removed)  --GorillazFanAdam 04:46, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Yes, because if I were an anti-semitic sockpuppet, I really would have made this comment, this edit, this edit , and especially this one  among others. It is not anti-semitic to have a list that happens to contain a few bad seeds. Every ethnic/religious/cultural/whatever(I'm not getting into the argument about how to define what it means to be Jewish) has some bad seeds. Wanting a list for them doesn't make one a bigot. Now, can we please concentrate on the AfD at hand? JoshuaZ 04:54, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Regarding the Jews and the Mafia list, it is an encyclopedic topic, probably even deserves its own article. Note that there have been at least two mainstream books on the topic in the last decade: . JoshuaZ 05:12, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete: Go make a category. savidan(talk) (e@) 04:50, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Strong and speedy Delete: Maintaining the list in an encyclopaedia is pointless. --Soumyasch 12:37, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Does anyone think that this sort of list is substantially different from List of Jewish actors and actresses? If so, I'd like to understand exactly why. JoshuaZ 03:46, 25 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.