Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish Foreign Ministers


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was delete. The existence of other pages is not a valid reason to have this one; furthermore, there are very few foreign ministers to begin with (as opposed to chemists, scientists, etc.). Veinor (talk to me) 20:59, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

List of Jewish Foreign Ministers

 * – (View AfD) (View log)

First, there's no real reason for this list, and it creates a slippery slope: List of Muslim Foreign Ministers, List of Zoroastrian Foreign Ministers, List of Gnostic Foreign Ministers, List of Jewish Agriculture Ministers, List of Jewish Interior Ministers, etc., etc. can't be far behind. Being Jewish and being foreign minister have no intrinsic connection and thus we should avoid this sort of synthesis. (Of course, more general lists like List of Jews in politics are fine, but this is too specific.) Second, there are no references, and some of the entries, such as Ismail Cem, are dubious. As an aside: I was surprised to learn Israel got her first Jewish FM in 2006! Biruitorul 05:25, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete - dispensable synthesis, unsourced. --Oxymoron83 06:12, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete - what appears to be another instance of massive Jewish-listing. Note there is also now a List of Jewish pacifists and peace activists. Wow. Bulldog123 06:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete. Concur with nomination. A politician's religion or ethnicity has no major impact on their career. It can be mentioned in the biography itself, but it is not such a big deal that a list needs to be created. Sjakkalle (Check!)  06:34, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete. This page just lists a bunch of flags and countries on a table. No list of ministers needs to be created. BeanoJosh 06:36, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete for the reasons mentioned by Sjakkalle. CG 08:04, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep Unlike a "List of Jewish American engineers", the ethnicity of the person selected to represent a nation in its conduct of foreign affairs can be a source of controversy, particularly since there are parts of the world where Judaism does not enjoy tolerance. Can you imagine the United States sending a Jewish Secretary of State to 1938 Berlin?  And although Madeline Albright would have had no qualms in visiting Iran, it would still be a touchy situation.  Responding to the nom, a list of Muslim foreign ministers (from non-Muslim countries) would be even shorter than a list of Jewish foreign ministers from nations other than Israel, for the same reason.  Yeah, ethnicity makes a difference in some jobs.  Mandsford 13:37, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * No question a person's Jewishness could matter. But why make a list out of it? Why not confine the matter to categories and text in biographies? Biruitorul 19:05, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, that's rather an America-centric statement. In most parts of the world Jewish descent is pretty irrelevant in politics.  I'd guess that most people in the UK, if asked, wouldn't have any idea that the three ministers listed were of Jewish descent.  The same is probably true across most of Europe.  Cosmo0 21:39, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree. "Miliband" not so much, but "Rifkind" and "Isaacs" do sound Jewish to the casual observer, so the British public probably has some idea of their background. In any case, none of this matters: the list is excessive and doesn't belong here. Biruitorul 22:00, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete per all arguments above. Yikes. K. Lásztocska 16:50, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:NOT. Sheffield Steel talkstalk 17:24, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete per all motivations above--Victor falk 17:39, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep as per Mandsford. To say a politician's religion or ethnicity has no major impact on their career, is to ignore humanity's history of religious and ethnic intolerance.  Benjamin Disraeli's career was affected by him being Jewish, and he's still the only Jewish person elected as British Prime Minister.  John F. Kennedy's career was affected by him being Catholic, and he's still the only Catholic person elected as US President.  Edward321 01:07, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * To say a politician's religion or ethnicity has no major impact on their career... Hold it right there! I never claimed such a thing, only that biographies and categories, rather than such lists, are the appropriate place to make that point. Biruitorul 19:05, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * No, you did not say it, I was quoting one of the first people to support deletion, especially since several others endorsed that editor specifically or made a blanket statement of support for all others supporting deletion, which is also a support for this obviously incorrect statement. Edward321 05:20, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, OK. Well, we concur on that point, but I still don't believe the list is necessary. The fact can more effectively be highlighted through subtler and more probing tools (categories and particularly article prose). Biruitorul 07:48, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Keep - "Slippery slope"? This article should be kept. There are many Jewish lists and articles and there is nothing special about this one. If it is OK to have a list of Jews in Politics or Jews of Poland then a list about Jews in a specific area of politics such as List of Jewish Foreign Ministers or List of Jewish Ambassadors should be possible. The claim that this article is "unsorced" or "dubious" is false. Furthermore, this is an ongoing effort. Everyone can contribute so that we can come up with a complete list. BTW, Ismail Cem Ipekci -who passed away last year- is a Jew that descends from Spanish Jews who were welcomed to the Ottoman Empire after their expulsion from Spain. Nostradamus1 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 20:00, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * — Nostradamus1 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. -- Biruitorul 22:00, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Wow. Just noticed this sneaky method of campaigning for support by the person who nominated this list for deletion.  Nostradamus1   —Preceding comment was added at 01:03, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * And anyway: yes, slippery slope. Where do you propose this list-mania end? And no, the notion that Cem was Jewish, as his article states, is not established fact. Biruitorul 22:00, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * "List-mania" existed long before this debate and will exist long after, and nothing any of us say will change that. Reading WP:LIST, there is nothing wrong with organizing information in lists so long as other Wikipedia principles are followed.  Lists are often more effective than straight narrative.  The problem is whether the topic of the list has an encyclopedic quality.  You acknowledge that religion or ethnicity can have an effect on a person's career; how do you feel about whether being a nation's foreign minister is a noteworthy career achievement?  Arguably, it's the most politically sensitive government appointment that can be made. Mandsford 15:05, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * No, I think straight narrative is quite a bit more effective in this case, because Jews exist in different contexts. Miliband's Jewishness doesn't bother most people; that was not the case with, say, Rathenau. By presenting all these names together we may imply that being Jewish meant exactly the same thing for all of them. Moreover, as I asked in my nomination: where does it end? And: Who is a Jew? Biruitorul 19:30, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It does not have to end anywhere. "Who is a Jew?" is not the question this list is attempting to answer.  If a person comes from Jewish descent and has served as a Foreign Minister of any country he/she qualifies to be listed here.  Would you rather find a broader list such as List of Jews in Foreign Affairs more acceptable?Nostradamus1  —Preceding comment was added at 01:34, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It does not have to end anywhere - oh, really? So we can have lists of every Jew, every Muslim, every Hindu, etc. working in every nation's government at any level? I think not. Again, what is "Jewish descent"? I'm not trying to sound like Joseph Goebbels, but someone like Cem has rather dubious standing as a Jew - he may have had Jewish ancestors far in the past, which doesn't exactly qualify him as Jewish. And no, I'd just rather not go into such minute slicing of people by category into a list. What we have now, with text and relevant categories, is quite sufficient. Biruitorul 01:49, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Let us not distract ourselves from what we are discussing here. It is not whether Cem is Jewish or not.  You nomintated this article for deletion.  There are many Jewish lists.  Why should this one be deleted?  Why should List of Jewish historians be kept? Nostradamus1   —Preceding comment was added at 01:14, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually that's a relevant issue and shows the flaws in such a list. Because that's a broad, generic category while this one is overly specific and unnecessary in light of similar but broader lists. Biruitorul 01:36, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Some of us need information at a more detailed level. Who is to decide what is too broad or too narrow?  According to you a list of historians is broad enough but a list of foreign ministers is not.  I'd ask you if you had any issues with a List of Prime Ministers of France but never mind.  I am sure you'll come back arguing that it is broad enough somehow. Nostradamus1
 * Some of us may need information at a more detailed level, but we don't use Wikipedia to supply that information. Obviously, Prime Minister of France is a constitutionally-designated office with legal standing, unlike the subject of this article, so the comparison is invalid. Biruitorul 14:24, 18 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete as absurd. to all that was said here, let me note that Foreign Ministers are not Foreign Ministers of Jewishness, but of their respective states. This means that the list serves no encyclopedic purpose whatsoever. Dahn 02:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete per all above. Greswik 14:35, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep per below. It is absurd to oppose such a list.  I'd like to ask all those who supported the deletion of this list if they see any difference between the List of Jewish Foreign Ministers and the following?  Why would someone want to know the list of people who are Jewish and historian? (Or pick your pair below.)  Does it have an encyclopedic value?  I'd say, yes.  I would like to be able to query for information and easily find it.  We should not let this article be deleted just because some people doe not like it for one reason or another.


 * List of Jewish scientists and philosophers
 * List of Jewish actors and actresses
 * List of Jewish American sportspeople
 * List of Jewish anarchists
 * List of Jewish American journalists
 * List of Jewish historians
 * List of British Jewish writers
 * List of Jewish economists
 * List of Jewish American businesspeople
 * List of fictitious Jews
 * List of Jewish-American politicians
 * List of British Jewish scientists
 * List of Jewish American entertainers
 * List of Jewish American playwrights
 * List of Jewish American photographers
 * List of Jewish American mathematicians
 * List of Jewish American chemists
 * List of Jewish Autonomous Oblast leaders

These are only a fraction of such lists. Just search for "List of Jewish". Nostradamus1 —Preceding comment was added at 00:56, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment None of those lists is even remotely connected to the extremely narrow focus of this one (they either speak of a Jewish community in a country or have the field of activity laid out in generic terms). Let me add that the last on your list is in reference not a community, but to the Jewish Autonomous Oblast. Dahn 01:16, 18 October 2007 (UTC)


 * What is the difference in the level of focus between List of Jewish American chemists and List of Jewish Foreign Ministers? One would argue that List of Jewish American chemists is even more narrowly focused since it has three attributes, i.e. Jewish, American, Chemist.  In comparison List of Jewish Foreign Ministers has only two. Jewish and Foreign Minister.Nostradamus1  —Preceding comment was added at 01:39, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Note: this is Nostradamus1's second vote in this discussion. Biruitorul 01:36, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I did not realize this was going to be deleted according to voting results. It casts doubt on the quality of information here.  One would pretend to be different people and vote many times.  Trying to eliminte a list because it is too specific is a weak argument.   But I am not sure if that matters under these circumstances.
 * No, we don't go by voting results, but writing "Keep" twice is looked down on as well. Biruitorul 14:24, 18 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.