Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish footballers


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. (non-admin closure) DavidLeighEllis (talk) 01:08, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

List of Jewish footballers

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This is a very strange and non notable intersection. What on earth is encyclopaedic about the intersection of football and Jewishness? It is almost as if the article was created to make some sort of anti-antisemitic point (though I very much doubt that knowing the creating editor, and I am absolutely making no accusations of that). The world is not better for the existence of this article and will not be worse for the lack of it. Why does anyone actually care that Fred is Jewish and plays football? Now a list of notable Israeli football players is a different matter. But this list is artificial at best. Fiddle  Faddle  22:28, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. JMHamo (talk) 00:38, 8 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep. See, for example the Speedy Keep at the AfD here at the List of Jewish Americans.

Jews as an ethnicity and nation. The Jewish ethnicity, nation, and religion of Judaism are strongly interrelated, as Judaism is the traditional faith of the Jewish nation.

Thus, in the (unusual) case of Jews, a nation that was largely dispersed 2,000 years ago from its homeland and geographic borders, it is not appropriate to delete. The Jewish nation lives largely, though now not wholly, in the Jewish diaspora. Under Israel's Law of Return, all members of the Jewish nation are automatically entitled, by virtue of being members of the Jewish nation, to return to the geographic borders of Israel, and become Israeli citizens. Other religions are, in the "normal case," distinct from the nation. In other words, there was not a Protestant, Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, or Atheist nation per se. Those who are members of these religions are not members of a nation or "people." Jews, peculiarly, are not just a religion, but are also a nation. In addition to the other points presented above, this is one that militates in favor or a !keep.

By the same token, it is by virtue of being a member of this intersection that one qualifies -- if sufficiently talented -- to play in the Maccabiah Games, the Jewish Olympics held quadrennially.

Furthermore, the notability of this intersection--as measured by Wikipedia standards--is reflected in the below books all of which focus on all or some of the elements of the list that nom is suggesting be deleted:
 * 1) Jews and the Sporting Life, Vol. 23 of Studies in Contemporary Jewry, Ezra Mendelsohn, Oxford University Press US, 2009, ISBN 0195382919
 * 2) Day by Day in Jewish Sports History, Bob Wechsler, KTAV Publishing House, 2008, ISBN 1602800138
 * 3) The Big Book of Jewish Athletes: Two Centuries of Jews in Sports - a Visual History, Peter S. Horvitz, Joachim Horvitz, S P I Books, 2007, ISBN 1561719277
 * 4) The Big Book of Jewish Sports Heros: An Illustrated Compendium of Sports History and The 150 Greatest Jewish Sports Stars, Peter S. Horvitz, SP Books, 2007, ISBN 1561719072
 * 5) Jews, Sports, and the Rites of Citizenship, Jack Kugelmass, University of Illinois Press, 2007, ISBN 025207324X
 * 6) Emancipation through Muscles: Jews and Sports in Europe, Michael Brenner, Gideon Reuveni, translated by Brenner, Reuveni, U of Nebraska Press, 2006, ISBN 0803213557
 * 7) Jewish Sports Stars: Athletic Heroes Past and Present, David J. Goldman, Edition 2, Kar-Ben Publishing, 2006, ISBN 1580131832
 * 8) Judaism's Encounter with American Sports, Jeffrey S. Gurock, Indiana University Press, 2005, ISBN 0253347009
 * 9) Jews and the Olympic Games; Sport: Springboard for Minorities, Paul Yogi Mayer, Vallentine Mitchell, 2004, ISBN 0853034516
 * 10) Great Jews in Sports, Robert Slater, Jonathan David Publishers, 2004, ISBN 0824604539
 * 11) Jews and the Olympic Games: The Clash between Sport and Politics: with a complete review of Jewish Olympic medallists, Paul Taylor, Sussex Academic Press, 2004, ISBN 1903900883
 * 12) The 100 Greatest Jews in Sports: Ranked According to Achievement, B. P. Robert Stephen Silverman, Scarecrow Press, 2003, ISBN 0810847752
 * 13) Jewish Sports Legends: the International Jewish Hall of Fame, 3rd Ed, Joseph Siegman, Brassey's, 2000, ISBN 1574882848
 * 14) Sports and the American Jew, Steven A. Riess, Syracuse University Press, 1998, ISBN 0815627548
 * 15) Ellis Island to Ebbets Field: Sport and the American Jewish Experience, Peter Levine, Oxford University Press US, 1993, ISBN 0195085558
 * 16) The Jewish Child's Book of Sports Heroes, Robert Slater, Jonathan David Publishers, 1993, ISBN 0824603605
 * 17) The International Jewish Sports Hall of Fame, Joseph M. Siegman, SP Books, 1992, ISBN 1561710288
 * 18) The Jewish Athletes Hall of Fame, B. P. Robert Stephen Silverman, Shapolsky Publishers, 1989, ISBN 094400704X
 * 19) From the Ghetto to the Games: Jewish Athletes in Hungary, Andrew Handler, East European Monographs, 1985, ISBN 0880330856
 * 20) The Jew in American Sports, Harold Uriel Ribalow, Meir Z. Ribalow, Edition 4, Hippocrene Books, 1985, ISBN 0882549952
 * 21) The Jewish Athlete: A Nostalgic View, Leible Hershfield, s.n., 1980
 * 22) Encyclopedia of Jews in Sports, Bernard Postal, Jesse Silver, Roy Silver, Bloch Pub. Co., 1965

In addition, the existence of of the following also suggests the notability of the intersection:


 * 1) International Jewish Sports Hall of Fame
 * 2) Jewish Canadian Athletes Hall of Fame
 * 3) U.S. National Jewish Sports Hall of Fame and Museum
 * 4) Michigan Jewish Sports Hall of Fame
 * 5) Jewish Sports Hall of Fame of Western Pennsylvania
 * 6) Jewish Sports Hall of Fame of Northern California
 * 7) Southern California Jewish Sports Hall of Fame
 * 8) Orange County Jewish Sports Hall of Fame
 * 9) Philadelphia Jewish Sports Hall of Fame
 * 10) Rochester Jewish Sports Hall of Fame

Furthermore, it follows the logic inherent in us having as articles, for example: List of Palestinians, List of Palestinian-Americans, List of Muslim scientists, List of Muslim sportspersons, List of Muslim mathematicians, List of Muslim astronomers, List of Muslim writers and poets, List of Islamic jurists, List of Muslims in entertainment and the media, List of Muslim Nobel laureates, List of Muslim painters, List of American Muslims, List of Shi'a Muslims, List of converts to Islam, List of Arab scientists and scholars, List of Arab Americans, List of Arab Canadians, and List of Arab American writers. Epeefleche (talk) 01:02, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment - the wall of text that Epeefleche has put above is relying on a lot of WP:OSE, some incredibly small-scale sources and/or sources of dubious reliability, and a hell of a lot of things that are irrelevant to this topic (meandering off to general sports, athletics or whatever). Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 01:23, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * It is insufficient to dismiss discussion of related articles on basis of labelling it "Other Stuff Exists". From the "guidance essay" wp:OSE: "In Wikipedia discussions, editors point to similarities across the project as reasons to keep, delete, or create a particular type of content, article or policy. These comparisons may or may not be valid...." (emphasis added by me).  I think in the past that there were lots more truly bad articles, so pointing to them did seem unhelpful, but there has been so much development in Wikipedia that it is increasingly relevant and important to consider our apparent standards reflected in comparable articles. -- do  ncr  am  02:56, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * If you actually bother to look at the things Epeefleche was citing, rather than following me around and attacking me in AfD debates, you'll see that none of them are relevant to this particular topic, because none of the mentioned ones are directly relevant to football, and only one is relevant to sportsmen and sportswomen. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 10:52, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Here's a good one: List of footballers called Abdur Rahman! Andrew (talk) 11:57, 8 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep - a list of Jewish sportspeople would certainly be notable (I noticed this when I found Feierstein's book, Historia de los judíos argentinos, which dedicates a full section to Argentine sportspeople that were Jews), and this is simply a component of such a list (including all sports in a single list would be unmanageable). 03:33, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Speedy keep. This is a more detailed subset of the list contained at List of Jews in sports, which was speedy-kept pursuant to Articles for deletion/List of Jews in sports (3rd nomination).  As demonstrated there and in other discussions over the years, this is unquestionably a notable topic that has been discussed in a plethora of sources. --Arxiloxos (talk) 03:47, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep. the list is more than a handful, so its a significant number, thus of presumable interest to someone. the 2 criteria are very well defined. you are always either jewish or not jewish, and a footballer or not. no one is "sort of" either. lists or categories of intersections of 2 notable subjects are i believe usually kept if definable and notable (ie if there are any that fit the intersection, or more than a few). I think people react to "jewish" as a modifier as it often sounds racist, even when its not meant that way. i find it odd to see in print, but its a gut reaction not usually justified by the context, which is neutral in this case.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 04:27, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep this is a well-structured list of notable Jewish footballers, has high EV with lots of publications on the subject. It's not too broad either. Classic WP:POINT. Actually, not too long ago there was something about celebrating Jewish football in the news; I don't remember what it was about exactly but they did speak about current and past Jewish footballers around the world. (If the name comes back to me I'll mention it, I think it was a museum in Philadelphia) -- Cy be r XR ef ☎ 07:01, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep Here's another source: The Cambridge Dictionary of Judaism and Jewish Culture. Andrew (talk) 10:11, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:40, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:40, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:40, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:40, 8 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete - In spite of the comments above, I still see no connection between being Jewish and playing football. Does it somehow affect their ability to play the game? – PeeJay 15:18, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep- My original feelings sided with nominator, however there is too much evidence to be ignored and this is clearly a notable topic. Blethering  Scot  16:39, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep - as article creator, as has been clearly shown here, the intersection of 'football' and 'Judaism' is a notable one. GiantSnowman 15:20, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep - plenty of evidence above to satisfy WP:GNG. Fenix down (talk) 11:15, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.