Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jews in sports (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. BJ Talk 04:48, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

List of Jews in sports
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This is a case of overcategorisation in list form. Why is it relevant that these sportspeople are Jewish? We do't have lists of Christian or Muslim sportspeople, and nor should we. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:07, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Strong delete per nom.-Juvvaglott (talk) 19:55, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment -- note that User:Juvvaglott's vote should not count since his/her account was just created a day ago, probably for the sole purpose of trying to delete this list. --Wassermann (talk) 05:14, 15 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete changed to merge, but still per this: WP:NOTDIR, no. 5. "Non-encyclopedic cross-categorizations, such as 'People from ethnic/cultural/religious group X employed by organization Y' or 'Restaurants specializing in food type X in city Y.'"  Graymornings (talk) 21:56, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete as overgategorization of the list variety. Besides, wasn't that just a leaflet that the one lady ordered from the stewardess offering something to read to the passengers in Airplane! ("Do you have anything light?")? MuZemike  ( talk ) 23:38, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep. The role of the Jew in sports has been a subject of considerable scholarly and popular attention over the years.  It is a significant topic within the discipline of Jewish studies.  The Airplane! joke is a reference to an old stereotype, which Jewish studies scholars have taken pains to confront. There are numerous books on the subject.  Just a few examples off a quick Google Books search (there are plenty more): Encyclopedia of Jews in Sports by Bernard Postal, Jesse Silver, Roy Silver (1965) (a book that I, and lots of other Jewish kids of my generation, had on the bookshelf); Great Jews in Sports by Robert Slater (2003), ISBN 0824604539 ; Emancipation Through Muscles: Jews and Sports in Europe by Michael Brenner, Gideon Reuveni, (2006) ISBN 0803213557 ; Jews, Sports, and the Rites of Citizenship ed. Jack Kugelmass (2007) ISBN 025207324X; Ellis Island to Ebbets Field: Sport and the American Jewish Experience by Peter Levine (1993) ISBN 0195085558 ; Judaism's Encounter with American Sports by Jeffrey S. Gurock (2005) ISBN 0253347009 .--Arxiloxos (talk) 00:20, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, the relationship between Jews and sports is notable, but probably not in list form. Could we create an article about Jews in sports and merge this list (perhaps in abbreviated form) into that article? This seems to be over-listing rather than creating content. I'd be more than happy to work on such an article.  Graymornings (talk) 22:13, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That sounds like a sensible idea to me. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:05, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep Outside sources consider this a notable intersection, as Arxiloxos demonstrates. Jewish athletes do face unique dilemmas; consider the case of Sandy Koufax and other baseball players, who refused to pitch on Yom Kippur. Zagalejo^^^ 04:06, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep in order to oppose the ongoing efforts to censor lists, categories, and articles dealing with Jews and Jewish issues here on Wikipedia. --Wassermann (talk) 05:11, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Please assume good faith with other editors. I doubt the people here siding for deletion have anything against Judaism or censorship henceforth. MuZemike  ( talk ) 21:19, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Correct - my nomination has nothing to do with Judaism per se. I just don't see how the sportsperson-Jewish intersection is relevant. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:36, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * On the refusing to pitch on Yom Kippur point, I see that that would be worth mentioning on specific articles such as the one about Sandy Koufax, but I don't see how that justifies a list such as this. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:38, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep. I considered this a trivial intersection when I first looked at it. But Arxiloxos clearly demonstrated I was mistaken. - Mgm|(talk) 08:56, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions.   -- the wub  "?!"  12:40, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions.   -- the wub  "?!"  12:40, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep per Arxiloxos' research.  Linguist At Large  17:55, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep Sólyomszem (talk) 20:04, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * User has provided no reason behind rationale. MuZemike  ( talk ) 21:17, 15 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions.   -- Raven1977 (talk) 07:19, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions.   -- Raven1977 (talk) 07:20, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep. The Jews are an ethnic group (who have endured mainly through the cohesion of those who kept the religion). So this is not a simple intersection of religion and occupation. I think occupation is as significant in terms of the makeup of an ethnic group as it is for any given nationality. (Related page: Category:Sportspeople by ethnicity.) --Eliyak T · C 03:05, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete because I agree with the nominator. Definitely a violation of Overcategorization: Non-notable intersections by ethnicity, religion, or sexual preference, and indeed "Jewish mathematicians" is cited in WP:OC as one such pointless effort at listifying or categorzing Jews with no real purpose and with real basis whatsoever. There have been at least twenty such lists deleted over the years, and this one is no different. Pure Listcruft at its worst. See:
 * Votes for deletion/List of Jewish Nobel Prize winners (September 2004) (Deleted July 2007)
 * Articles for deletion/List of Jewish engineers (October 2005)
 * Articles for deletion/List of Jewish Fellows of the Royal Society (2nd nomination) (November 2005)
 * Articles for deletion/List of Jewish American criminals and victims (March 2006)
 * Articles for deletion/List of Jews in the media (June 2006)
 * Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish Peruvian activists (and other trivialised lists of Peruvian Jews) (February 2007)
 * Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of atheist Nobel laureates (2nd nomination): List of Jewish Nobel laureates (July 2007)
 * Articles for deletion/List of Messianic Jews and Hebrew Christians (July 2007)
 * List of people of Polish Jewish descent (July 2007)
 * Articles for deletion/List of religious leaders with Jewish background (August 2007)
 * Articles for deletion/List of Jewish American social and political scientists (August 2007)
 * Articles for deletion/List of Jewish American engineers (October 2007)
 * Articles for deletion/List of Jewish American fashion designers (October 2007)
 * Articles for deletion/List of Jewish Foreign Ministers (October 2007)
 * Articles for deletion/List of Jewish Orthodox anti-Zionists (October 2007)
 * Articles for deletion/List of Jewish jurists (2nd nomination) (May 2008)
 * Articles for deletion/Jews in the history of business (August 2008)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.