Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Latin and Hispanic Primetime Emmy Award winners and nominees


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. This discussion had a fairly wide ranging discussion in the latter half, but in terms of policy-backed reasons (which, to note, the sole Keep !vote did have, as well as the other aspects mentioned) it was primarily on OR and ill-formed criteria bases. Nosebagbear (talk) 13:21, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

List of Latin and Hispanic Primetime Emmy Award winners and nominees

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Arbitrary original research— there’s no precise formal definition of “Hispanic/Latin” and no evidence this is a broadly notable cross-categorization. Dronebogus (talk) 18:30, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. Dronebogus (talk) 18:30, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. Dronebogus (talk) 18:30, 23 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete. Agree that there's no unambiguous definition of "Hispanic/Latin", so we'd either have to ask every candidate for this list what their ethnic self-designation is, or we'd be into the realm of opinion. RomanSpa (talk) 19:22, 23 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete. I agree with the other users, and I'm not exactly sure why we'd need to single out nominees of a particular race, there doesn't seem to be any relevance to the rest of the article in that respect. Lists would be better divided by the award categories, not race. Much more useful.  GrendelNightmares   (talk) 05:18, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete Per the nom. The list is WP:OR, and a WP:BLP nightmare there is no way for editors to verify or rectify. Lists by award category would be far more useful and are actully cited in reliable sources, not an unreliably defined editor-imposed racial/ethnic designation based article. Newshunter12 (talk) 00:02, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete Not a notable cross-categorization. Spudlace (talk) 02:54, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete as an unnecessary, illogical and unworkable cross-categorisation. See here for deletion precedent and my arguments against this list in that discussion. I don't say this lightly but this is one of the only WP pages that I actually think verges on racist by the placement of national flags against people's names based on their ethnicity (not citizenship/residency). One example: Edward James Olmos is an American (I don't believe he holds any other citizenship), was born in America, has lived in America his whole life and had parents who were residents and/or citizens of America with Mexican heritage. Yet this page puts a Mexican flag next to Olmos' name! Can you imagine something similar being done in a list for an American of European decent? Vladimir.copic (talk) 04:18, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Question @Dronebogus can we add List of Hispanic Academy Award winners and nominees to this nomination as it is very similar and probably worse. Vladimir.copic (talk) 21:57, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Well sure but I don’t really know the procedure for that. Dronebogus (talk) 00:07, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
 * There’s a whole bunch of Academy awards by x ethnicity (including apparently two for people of Asian ancestry) so they should probably be bundle-nominated. I really do not enjoy manual deletion work so if someone could do that for me I’d be extremely appreciative. Dronebogus (talk) 12:47, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep. This book provides a list of Latin Emmy winners and gives statistics . There has been much public discussion and media attention over systemic racial bias of acting awards. As such, this is a notable cross-categorization which is born out by media articles like these, , , , , . I disagree that the content couldn't be sourced, and I further contend that deleting this would contribute to systemic racial bias within wikipedia.4meter4 (talk) 03:34, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Excellent point. As a white person myself, I don't think it would be my place to try to delete an article like this. Bkatcher (talk) 04:23, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
 * There’s a difference between an article about systemic racial bias in awards as an overall topic and a list that just arbitrarily labels people “latin/hispanic” and expects readers to extract something meaningful from it. Let’s focus on creating better content about this topic rather than clinging to haphazard nonsense like this list.
 * The problem with using lists to cover systemic bias in awards is that they can’t “see the forest for the trees”— it’s not about individual names or some concrete number or quota, but rather the overall ratio of white nominees/winners/reviewers/etc. to nonwhite ones in awards vs. all artists. Dronebogus (talk) 05:30, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I actually think the issue is that list is quite racist and reduces living people to their ethnic background based on the whims of editors. See my above comment about Edward James Olmos. It includes Penelope Cruz and Antonio Banderas for some reason too who, as far as I am aware, are European. I agree that there has been much written about racial bias at the Oscars but why not write about it. A list does not help cover this issue. Vladimir.copic (talk) 08:25, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
 * That’s ridiculous logic. The media specifically pays attention to Latinx nominations at the Emmys because of racial bias. Tracking Latinx winners and nominees happens in media and publications on entertainment; often by Latinx journalists. Deleting such lists is a form of erasure. There’s lots of sources on this topic and clearly either a competent WP:BEFORE wasn’t done or people are allowing their own prejudice to inform their vote.4meter4 (talk) 10:25, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The parameters of the list are just too random and are ripe for WP:V issues. In what sense is Edward James Olmos Mexican? In what sense is Penelope Cruz Latinx? What are the limits of Latin American heritage? Should Anthony Bourdain be included as he had a great great etc grandfather who lived in Paraguay? Basically editors are just deciding who is latinx enough to be included. If this was a list of Latin Americans it would be different as this easier to verify. Also this is not erasure as there people should still be listed on the universal nominees/winners page. Vladimir.copic (talk) 10:51, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Sigh. Erasure is a term used in psychology, sociology, and interdisciplinary academic fields like African American studies, womens studies, ethnography, queer studies, gender studies, etc. where race or gender or sexuality is removed from the discussion on purpose which prevents the impact of race or gender or sexuality from being examined. This is viewed as a form of white or male or heteronormative dominance (depending on whether its gender or race or sexuality being removed) which is exerted over minorities by removing them from view or preventing their experience and stories from being told from their point of view or by preventing analysis of how race/gender/sexuality can impact institutions and events. The argument you made above is a textbook example of an erasure argument where discussing race and making it a focus is deemed racist. Such views are termed erasure because essentially it shuts down any conversation, discussion, analysis, viewpoints, etc. of how race impacts the lives of people of that race and the way race can impact institutions and societal relationships. In short its viewed as ethically wrong in current academia to put forward that sort of argument. Lastly, the solution to your problem is to simply limit the list to subjects who have self identified as Latinx or Hispanic and have won or been nominated for an Emmy. If we don't have RS saying they are Latinx or Hispanic then we don't include them. Entries without refs proving that can simply be removed. 4meter4 (talk) 19:19, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Relisting due to late "keep" !vote.
 * That’s all well and good but surely there’s a better way to discuss the intersection of Latinx issues, racism, and the Emmys than a big list that just says “such-and-such won award so-and-so whenever and also he was of Cuban ancestry”. And I respect detailed, intelligent reasoning but try to keep your comments relatively short and to-the-point. Dronebogus (talk) 00:11, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:40, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete due to inappropriate use of flags to specify ethnic ancestry (and not identified with country names in violation of MOS:FLAG). If the flags are deleted, the closing admin should feel free to ignore this recommendation. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 18:27, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I have no objection to removing the flags. That's not really a valid reason for deletion but an editorial decision that is easily remedied. WP:AFD is not cleanup.4meter4 (talk) 22:04, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
 * That's good. If someone actually does remove all the flags, then this article will be facing one fewer "delete" recommendation. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 05:45, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Template language isn't my strong suit, but I support the removal. If you are good with modifying templates, go ahead and do it yourself per WP:BOLD.4meter4 (talk) 06:52, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
 * To be precise, you don't have to modify any templates, just a table. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 21:38, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Tables aren't my specialty either (obviously ;-) ).4meter4 (talk) 01:10, 3 October 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.