Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Marvel Comics demons (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Redirects have been pointed to Lists of Marvel Comics characters deleted. TigerShark (talk) 00:35, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

List of Marvel Comics demons
AfDs for this article:


 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Wall of fancruft with no actual sources whatsoever. Dronebogus (talk) 09:19, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements, Comics and animation,  and Lists.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 09:22, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete. WP:FANCRUFT, listcruft variety. No evidence this meets WP:LISTN. Previous AfD ended at no consensus due to argumentsts that it contains blue-linked entities, but I am not sure what policy that argument is based on. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 10:42, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Something dream focus made up that doesn’t actually exist, I presume. Dronebogus (talk) 14:12, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete - Aside from the reasons already brought up in the above discussions, there also seems to be quite a bit of WP:OR here, as there are a number of characters/sections/etc. that are listed here with no actual reliable sources supporting why they would all be grouped together. The number of blue links is also not a very good argument for Keeping as many of them were just circular links that led right back to this page (I think I removed all of those at this point). Even among the remaining ones, many of them are just links to other lists of Marvel characters or links to articles where they are not the main topic and barely mentioned. There are a few of the typical click-bait "TOP TEN STRONGEST MARVEL DEMONS" type "articles" out there, which I'm sure someone will bring up as evidence that this passes WP:LISTN, but I will preemptively argue that they do not, as they merely cover a small handful of these characters with a couple sentences of entirely in-universe plot information. Rorshacma (talk) 16:17, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep I have removed the original research problems and mentions of any demon which didn't have their own article or significant mention in another article. This navigational list is more useful than Category:Marvel Comics demons since it allows for additional information to be found, helping readers find what they might be interested in reading. Categories, lists, and navigation templates and WP:LISTPURP are relevant here.  D r e a m Focus  16:59, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * @Dream Focus I can somewhat see how this made sense for the list of fictional deities, which is a big concept. But this is b/c I also believe we can have an article for fictional deity, a concept. Whereas I have trouble finding Marvel Comic demon a notable concept. More to a point, what's the rationale for us even having the category Category:Marvel Comics demons? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  10:49, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * You can’t just make a list of any random crap and say it’s “navigational”. The other day I was looking for the name of an anime girl with a headband, that doesn’t mean I want or need a Wikipedia list of anime girls by headwear. Dronebogus (talk) 14:44, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Are you sure? You could try to be WP:BOLD and make the page ;-) Mathmo Talk 18:17, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete - the majority of the characters listed have little connection to one another. Grouping them together serves no purpose that I can see. Argento Surfer (talk) 12:50, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Of note is that some mild edit warring has occurred with the article on 4 July 2022 (UTC), with 12,915 bytes of data being added and removed. As of this post, the 12,915 bytes of contested data is present in the article (diff, permanent link). Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 11:11, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete- huge sprawling wall of fancruft. This content would be more at home on Wikia or on a fan page somewhere, but on this encyclopedia it is poorly sourced and excessively crufty, with lots of original research and little to no navigational value. Reyk YO! 21:49, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete: does not meet WP:LISTN or WP:GNG. No significant sources. Shooterwalker (talk) 21:52, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep - Let this page stay. I don't know where else on this website we should list the information on the demons. To the person closing this discussion if the outcome is delete, I ask that you transfer all the demon redirects to this page to each of the List of Marvel Comics characters pages so that they would be mentioned there. --Rtkat3 (talk) 03:11, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Are Demons really characters though? — SirDot (talk) 12:59, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Begging for mercy is not a keep rationale. We don’t need to list “information on the demons” here at all, it’s not sufficiently notable. Dronebogus (talk) 13:22, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
 * To recap, I am asking the closer to to transfer the demon redirects to this page to the respectful List of Marvel Comics characters pages in the spirit of WP:PRESERVE. Chthon and Set already have redirects there. --Rtkat3 (talk) 17:57, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep - The list is being filled in (as well as references where appropriate), demonstrating the connections of many of the demonic characters to one another within Marvel continuity. Feels like a nice corollary to List of deities in Marvel Comics, and could be a useful resource for academic research into the mythology of Marvel. -- stoshmaster (talk) 23:23, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * There are still no reliable independent sources talking about this topic; your points are either inapplicable to this encyclopedia (why do we care how filled in it is or how a bunch of comic book demons are connected?) or WP:ILIKEIT/WP:ITSUSEFUL. Dronebogus (talk) 00:39, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep per the arguments of Dream Focus and Stoshmaster, if topic can be improved then it does not need to be deleted. BOZ (talk) 23:30, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * There has been no serious improvement, your point is inapplicable. Dronebogus (talk) 00:40, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   08:51, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment having reviewed the additional material, I will say the article is better presented than it was when I first !voted. However, I still feel the majority of the characters are unrelated aside from the weak connection of sharing the label "demon." Marvel's demonic mythology was never consistently developed between different comic series, and this list is synthesis until the academic research Stoshmaster mentions is actually performed. If we retain this list as a useful resource for that potential research, we risk a citogenesis problem. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:33, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Dronebogus (talk) 21:50, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree that the list is a bit broad, and that a number of entries are not demons per se but instead have some connection with demonic power. For instance, are the various Ghost Riders or Nightcrawler really demons?? Maybe if the list were culled to solely being "actual" demons, it might be more useful? (Someone with more knowledge than me would need to make those decisions.) -- stoshmaster (talk) 18:55, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Circa 2009, Ghost Rider was revealed to be an angel. I don't know if that's still the case. Argento Surfer (talk) 11:42, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete Extremely crufty; this information belongs in FANDOM rather than Wikipedia. Fails WP:LISTN. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 11:47, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep the list fulfills the purposes of information and navigation WP:LISTN. Really that is the point of any list on WP. Lightburst (talk) 00:32, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
 * That doesn’t answer the core question of whether a “marvel comics demon” is even a notable concept. This isn’t a ballot, find a source. Dronebogus (talk) 01:19, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Keep - The list adds a lot of extra context. Mathmo Talk 15:21, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment - That really is not a valid reason for keeping as it does not address any of the concerns brought up in the AFD, namely that there is not any significant coverage in reliable sources to even establish that "Marvel Comics Demons" are even a notable concept, let alone to support any of the information. There really has been no improvement to this article since its nomination - the article may have been reorganized to look prettier, but is still entirely just plot information cited directly to issues of comics, if even that. AFD is not a vote, and arguments that could basically be boiled down to WP:ITSUSEFUL style arguments should not be considered when deciding consensus. Rorshacma (talk) 16:10, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I've read those concerns, and they do not make a convincing case for deletion. Mathmo Talk 18:16, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Yeah, they are just policy based. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 07:42, 14 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Delete As has repeatedly commented, none of the Keep votes have provided reliable sources proving that the topic meets WP:GNG, or that this is even a coherent topic. They are mostly WP:ITSUSEFUL or similar arguments. I, too, believe that the topic fails GNG based on my search results. –LaundryPizza03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 18:02, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete - fails to meet LISTN or GNG. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 14:21, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete - There are no sources to meet GNG about the topic as a whole. There's nothing to make it suitable as a stand alone list. There are probably 100 other Marvel character lists, so this provides no encyclopedic navigational benefit. TTN (talk) 15:19, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete does not meet WP:LISTN or WP:GNG because it doesn't have enough sources. Jontesta (talk) 14:35, 18 July 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.