Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Messianic Judaism important figures


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was Delete. —Quarl (talk) 2007-02-10 20:51Z 

List of Messianic Judaism important figures

 * – (View AfD) (View log)

This article is simply a smattering of people who are important in the Old Testament and the New Testament. No explanation or citations are given for why any of them are particularly important for the Messianics, or for that matter why this importance isn't simply from the trivial matter of them being important in Christianity and Judaism. JoshuaZ 04:08, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletions.  IZAK 12:24, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * (which usually means the anti-Messianic bandwagon is about to begin) inigmatus 06:37, 10 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Speedy Keep First, its not people important to Old and New Testament. It's people important to Messianic Judaism found in the Tanakh and the B'rit Chadasha. Second, just because the heavy hand of Jewish editors has discouraged the participation of Messianic editors in Wikipedia, I don't think is grounds to simply delete an article based off the idea "nominating for AfD. I said back in November that I'd nom this if concerns weren't dealt with. no attempt has been made to deal with them, so off to AfD we go" - your concerns are your own. You could have worked on the article first to actually improve it yourself, without deleting it - you had a good suggestion, so why didn't you follow through with it? As such, you've done nothing to the article to help it since November, and now all of a sudden because you participate in other Messianic VfDs, you're somehow reminded how you can attack other MJ articles, you're probably going to bandwagon the rest of the Jewish editing gang to delete this one too. You know what, the article is relevant to list important figures in Messianic Judaism. The reasons cited is quite obvious from the title headings "Figures from the Tanakh" and "Figures from the B'rit Chadasha" - and since Messianic Judaism is NOT Christianity, a separate page listing important figures to Messianic Judaism is just as necessary as Mormons listing important figures to their religion apart from Christianity. Shall I guess that there will be 40+ delete per nom, or "confusing" or "not needed" votes from blatantly obvious Jewish editors whereas the rest of us consensus-building non rabbinic Jewish wikipedians vote to keep? The only issue here is that you don't believe that Messianic Judaism is separate from Christianity; and that is the ONLY reason you have to delete this article; and to be honest, this article is not the place to inform the public of this. Messianic Judaism instead exists to do just that. This isn't a content issue you have. It's a religious definition one, and I wish you rabbinics would quit VfDing valid MJ articles and templates that you only have POV reasons to delete. inigmatus 04:24, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Let me say that you are correct in one minor detail- the TfD reminded me to look into this article's situation and see how if anything had changed since November. That said, I'm not sure I can find an otherwise remotely true statement in the remainder of the above. First, before AfDing this, I looked for sources to see if I could find anything like "X is an important figure in Messianic Judaism." I found none. Second, whether Messianic Judaism is or is not Christianity is irrelevant to why I AfDed this- a list of important people in the OT and the NT doesn't make anything unique to MJism when those people are only important by virtue of being important in those two texts. To be the stereotypical "rabbinic" Jew you think I am, there is no chiddish in this list. Third, I don't intend to "bandwagon" anyone and I would disagree with anyone who argued that this list should be deleted based on confusion concerns (such concerns may be legitimate in other cases, but they don't exist here). Fourth, for the vast majority of Wikipedians, the OT is nearly identical to Tanach and the "Brit Chadashah" is the NT (heck, the term even means "New Covenant)- I'm not going to use terms from other languages simply to obscure matters. Finally, I cannot emphasize enough that my personal opinion about the nature of Messianic Judaism had nothing to do with this deletion- the lack of sourcing and the inherent triviality of the list was the basis. If I thought that this was being used to push some sort of Messianism-is-Judaism I would have said so in my nomination. JoshuaZ 04:37, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Final CommentIn Template:Judaism, a list of important figures is included. To prevent bloating Template:Messianic Judaism, this article currently lists figures important to Messianic Judaism, just as the Template:Judaism template lists figures important to Judaism. No other inclusion criteria is needed. At this point I would say that the current list and this article simply provides a means to prevent bloating the current Messianic Judaism template with the same names. Furthermore, Hebraic names are used for these important figures; a source of which is quite easily found in the Orthodox Jewish Bible at http://www.afii.org/ojbible.html - one of many sources that use these names and others to the extreme, and is proof that these names are in use, notable, and useful for inclusion in Wikipedia as a list of important figures to Messianic Judaism. This is my final response. As the last regular Messianic editor on Wiki, I'm saying that these VfDs are consuming so much of my time that I have not contributed anything to any articles in months; and would feel that if I did, it would probably be VfDed ultimately anyways so as to render my contributions useless - and without other Messianic editors to help, well, I guess Wikipedia just won't be the place to find out about them. inigmatus 05:11, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete OR. In my experience, there are two requirements for an encyclopedic list of "important" or "notable" things related to a topic. First, there has to be a (sourced) criteria that defines what notable means and second there has to be a source that has decided that the things listed are notable, unless it is blindingly obvious from the criteria. In this case, neither of these are present. The list is defined as: "A comprehensive list of historical and important figures in Messianic Judaism and the apologetics of its followers." Does that mean that anyone who a Messianic Jewish theologian thought was notable must be included? What happens when two apologetics disagree about an individual's notability? Unless the list is overhauled to address these problems, it is not encyclopedic. GabrielF 04:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete per JoshuaZ.--DLand TALK 04:58, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete Who says they are inportant to messianic Judiasm? The editor? Then it is original research. If a scholar published something that says they are important in that way, then add a reference to the fact and I will reconsider. Edison 05:18, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Reference: The Bible. inigmatus 05:20, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment The Bible doesn't actually say in specific words that these specific individuals are important specifically to Messianic Judaism. That's the verification Wikipedia requires. -- Charlene 22:54, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete Please, those are not figures important to Messianic Judaism, those are people important to Judaism or Christianity. This list SHOULD have people important to the rise of Messianism in modern culture; not Adam or Enoch. I am sorely afraid that this s just another method for certain people to try and use Wikipedia as a vehicle to grant the veneer of Judaic or Christian acceptance to Messianism; something wikipedia can not and should not countenance. Avi 05:35, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete. This is a list of persons mentioned in the Bible, which does not belong under this title. The author stated above that the reference was The Bible, but the Bible does not state that these people are important to messianic judaism. In fact, I don't think the phrase "Messianic Judaism" appears in the Bible. Saying that it is the interpretation that counts brings us right back to the problem of Original Research. Alleging a great Jewish conspiracy on Wikipedia, by the way, is not necessary. Remember that there is no Cabal. --N Shar 06:13, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete it's just a list of (Biblical) characters that are important to any Christians so that the names on this list could then be placed on: List of Catholic important figures; List of Protestant important figures; List of Evangelical important figures; List of Anglican important figures etc etc, and what a repetitive waste that would be. IZAK 12:20, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete per nominator. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€  13:20, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. If the importance of some of these people differs in Messianic Judaism from their importance in Judaism and/or Christianity, it would be better to explain that in a prose article than just giving their names. --Metropolitan90 18:23, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete It is only a list which does not make sense.-MsHyde 18:24, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete Original research, not clear guidelines on who's important. No one is likly to search via this list. If keep wins it needs to be renamed I think also to List of important figures in--Dacium 22:36, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete I have previously voted to keep every article on Messianic Judaism that has reached Afd, because I strongly disapprove of attempts to remove relative small religious sects in general, as WP is not a judge of theology. In this case, however,  here is no actual content. These are simply some major figures in the OT and NT, with the NT spellings altered in the fashion of MJ. But the MJ articles cover this perfectly well, and there is no need of an incomplete and problematic list like this -- the suite of articles are stronger without it. DGG 04:47, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment The purpose of the list was to prevent the inflation of Template: Messianic Judaism with such names and was created in response to demands that MJs were being "misleading" by not referencing Christian figures in the template. Man, I'm beginning to feel that meeting the demands of the non-Messianic Jewish editing community in these VfDs they constantly force on us to waste time with defending a perfect legit contribution, is a catch 22. I ask for the moderating admin to consider this. I know there is no Cabal, but to deny the blatantly obvious link at the top informing us that this VfD is on a notice page for a religion that claims to be separate from Messianic Judaism - just causes me to wonder.inigmatus 06:44, 10 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete - per nom. ←Humus sapiens ну? 09:40, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. --MaNeMeBasat 15:41, 10 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.