Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Mexican American writers


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was no consensus. Jaranda wat's sup 21:22, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

List of Mexican American writers

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Fails all three criteria in WP:LIST: (a) it's not informative, it's just an indiscriminate collection of names and furthermore duplicates Category:Mexican American writers. (b) it is not meant for navigation. (c) it serves no development purposes. Punkmorten 07:42, 26 June 2007 (UTC) 
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletions.   -- John Vandenberg 18:13, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletions.   -- John Vandenberg 18:14, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep, contrary to the nominator's claim, this is not an indiscriminate collection of names. A writer's voice, style and content can be highly influenced by there ethnic group, and indeed the experiences of the writer's ethnic group can be the major theme of a writer's work, so this is a highly relevent intersection. I find the argument that this is "indiscriminate collection of names" that duplicates a category to be unusual. If the categoy is a valid category, how can the list of names be indiscriminate? I find it difficult to predict the intentions of article writers, so this list may not have been meant for navigation, but it can be used for such since it organized in the obvious way, alphabetically. Although the list as it currently stands is not being used for development there is the possibility that is has in the past. Luis J. Rodriguez was added to this list on July 21, 2006 . The article for Rodriguez was not started until 10 days later. []. Dsmdgold 23:38, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * What I meant is that it has no inclusion criteria - other than the page title of course. It is not useful for navigation given that we have the category. Whether it has served development purposes in the past is totally irrelevant now. Punkmorten 08:01, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that the title in and of itself gives a pretty decent set of inclusion criteria. For example Linda Chavez clearly belongs while Patrick O'Brian clearly does not. The fact that we have an alternate method of navigation does not negate that this can be used for navigation, especially given the number of redirects there are to this page. To improve its utility for navigation, I have included this on Lists of writers and the see also section of Mexican American. I'm not sure why you think that the past use for development is "totally irrelevant". If and when writers without articles are added it will serve that purpose again. Dsmdgold 21:07, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete, list is merely a duplicate of the category and offers no further information. PC78 23:07, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete Sad to say, but Category:Mexican American writers exists. Kwsn (Ni!) 15:36, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete THere's no sense in having a list where a category better serves it's purpose. Calgary 13:53, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mailer Diablo 13:38, 5 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete on the basis of no listed inclusion criteria. Does this include writers born in America with one or both parents of Mexican descent, or writers who grew up in Mexico before immigrating to America, or writers whose work focuses on some kind of Mexican-American experience? Looking at Lists of writers, I was initially concerned that there were so many other lists exactly like this one that I wouldn't feel right voting to delete it, but there are actually only three other "Lists of [Nationality](-)American Writers":
 * List of African-American writers, which survived AFD in January because it defines its scope and relates to an established genre of African American literature;
 * List of Asian American writers, which also has no clear definition and which I would vote to delete;
 * List of Irish American writers, which has a clear definition, but does not indicate the relevance of the Irish American heritage of many of the people listed, and which I would vote to delete.
 * So I'm cool with deleting this one. Propaniac 14:40, 5 July 2007 (UTC)]


 * Delete per Propaniac. And might as well nominate List of Irish American writers. Clearly, these aren't all going to be Angela's Ashes authors. Bulldog123 16:04, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep It serves as a good reference tool for authors not mentioned elsewhere. --evrik (talk) 17:48, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I just changed the name of the article It is no longer a list. It is now an article stub and has been tagged for expansion. --evrik (talk) 18:01, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * First, it is not a good reference tool, however the category is. Second, I think it was wrong to move an article which is currently being discussed. Try establishing consensus. Punkmorten 10:50, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong keep the list has been renamed, turned into a stub, & tagged for expansion. --Chicaneo 19:33, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It still has the same, utterly worthless contents (whereas the category is, of course "utterly" useful!). Punkmorten 10:50, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep since WP has decided to make lists of people by ethnicity and race, and has decided that these other lists of writers are fine even if the writers don't write in the genre, no reason to single out Mexican American writers for disparate treatment, as per the exception in WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. Carlossuarez46 23:31, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You are completely missing the point, namely that the topic is already served by a category. Please read my deletion rationale and WP:LIST. Punkmorten 10:50, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * When I looked at the article it was no longer the List of Mexican American writers but had been redirected (merged?) with Mexican American literature, a perfectly valid genre and encyclopedic; if you object to the majority of the article being a list be WP:Bold and add more content or delete the list part. But if you are really saying that Mexican American literature ought to be deleted because we have a category of its writers. I couldn't disagree more. Next, we'll be deleting Physics because we have the Category:Physicists? Carlossuarez46 18:00, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Merge Mexican American literature and List of Mexican American writers. They are essentually the same articles. Better yet, develop Mexican American literature into an actual article about various authors and the importance of their work, etc. --JuanMuslim 1m 03:29, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * They are the same article. An editor took it upon themselves to move the list of writers to the "Literature" title. Propaniac 12:16, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * However, Mexican-American literature is a valid topic. List of Mexican-American writers is not. --Hemlock Martinis 19:02, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Bulldog123 22:25, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I've participated in several AfD discussions where a worthy article was improved during the Afd process. Can you tell me where you got your information? Thank you.--Chicaneo 00:41, 8 July 2007 (UTC) Found it. --Chicaneo 00:47, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep under the rationale used for List of African-American writers. Mexican American literature is an established genre, although it is most often termed Chicano literature. This is an established field of study in many Universities, and therefore the list serves its purpose, especially to contrast a list of Mexican American writers with those who choose to write about their ethnic experience. --Bfraga 16:13, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment I re-renamed it. Changes shouldn't be implemented during the afd, and the changes have obviously confused several people above. Bulldog123 23:59, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The point is no significant changes were made. It was just a rename and it completely confused everything. Bulldog123 01:32, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete. Race/profession intersections are almost always better off as categories than as lists. --Hemlock Martinis 08:18, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep under the rationale used for List of African-American writers. Mexican American literature is an established genre, although it is most often termed Chicano literature. --evrik (talk) 18:07, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The idea behind keeping the African-American list was so that it could include African-American writers of their established genre. Spike Lee and John Singleton, for example, have to be called an African-American film director. On the other hand, Antoine Fuqua doesn't. The same idea doesn't apply here. Bulldog123 20:16, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't follow your reasoning. --evrik (talk) 05:20, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I wrote too much. I'm just saying that this is a list of writers who are also Mexican-Americans, not "Mexican-American writers". Bulldog123 22:24, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure I see the difference. I understand that there is not, for example, Mexican-American way of doing Acounting. So that I List of Mexican-American accountants would be a bad thing. However, I think that ethnicity is so tied to identity in the United States and that, for almost all forms of writing, the ethnicity of the writer informs his or her work to at least some extent. Dsmdgold 00:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You silly, of course there is a Mexican American way of doing accounting - it's called bean counting. LOL ;-)--Chicaneo 05:46, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment: I'm not sure I follow the above reasoning either.  Mexican American literature aka Chicano literature is an established genre.  There are many types of literature that fall into this category.  There is poetry which has a very old oral history in the corridos, or ballads, of the Southwestern United States prior to the 1848 Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (i.e., the region which used to be Mexico but is now comprised of the states California, Texas and everything in between).  Rodolfo Gonzales', "I Am Joaquin" is a famous epic poem that traces the struggles of the Mexican American from the indigenous peoples, through the Spanish Conquest, through the aquisition of the lands and peoples of Northern Mexico by the United States, through modern day civil rights issues.  There are calaveras - satirical poems.  There is children's literature and Tomas Rivera is an author whose works mainly focus on the lives of Mexican American farm working (migrant) children.  There is Mexican American fiction which focuses on the "insider/outsider" and "assimilation to the dominant culture/preservation of ethnic cultural identity" issues that most of us Mexican Americans find ourselves struggling with on a daily basis.  There are many famous writers of Chicano fiction, Sandra Cisneros is one of the more contemporary ones.  There is Mexican American non fiction which documents historical events and people.  Just Google "Mexican American non fiction" for tons and tons of biographies.  And if you were to Google "Mexican American literature" you would come up with  which is a US Govt website that has information about Mexican American poetry.  And Mexican American literature is a subject taught in universities all over the United States.  So I'm really not sure where any of the discussions above questioning Mexican American literature as a unique genre are comming from.  I do believe however, that the article as it stands now is no longer a list.  It is a stub on a legitimate literary genre and needs work. It also needs to be renamed. As it was when it was a list, yes it should have been deleted.  But now, as part of a larger article, I believe it should stand per Evrik. --Chicaneo 06:33, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep per the same rationale used in the List of African-American writers. However, the introduction in the aticle should be rephrased with a clear definition of whom are to be considered Mexican-Americans. It would also be much better if there was a "List of Hispanic-American writers" which would include Hispanic-Americans in general and merge this list to it. Just an opinion. Tony the Marine 00:54, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.