Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of National Football League and Arena football players


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. (non-admin closure)  →TSU tp* 15:06, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

List of National Football League and Arena football players

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Article is original research, has no citations, and smacks of trivia. Not that this a reason for deletion, but the title is also misleading because it doesn't accurately describe the article. Jrcla2 (talk) 13:48, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * DeleteFails WP:LISTN, which says "A list topic is considered notable if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources." I havent found an effective search query that yields any such sources.—Bagumba (talk) 15:42, 23 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment - Let's quote that whole notability rule: ''"Notability guidelines apply to the inclusion of stand-alone lists and tables. Notability of lists (whether titled as "List of Xs" or "Xs") is based on the group. A list topic is considered notable if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources, per the above guidelines; notable list topics are appropriate for a stand-alone list. The entirety of the list does not need to be documented in sources for notability, only that the grouping or set in general has been. Because the group or set is notable, the individual items in the list do not need to be independently notable, although editors may, at their discretion, choose to limit large lists by only including entries for independently notable items or those with Wikipedia articles.
 * "There is no present consensus for how to assess the notability of more complex and cross-categorization lists (such as "Lists of X of Y") or whether there are other means of forming stand-alone lists, although non-encyclopedic cross-categorizations are touched upon in Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. Editors are still urged to demonstrate list notability via the grouping itself before creating stand-alone lists." — Note especially this second part: "There is no present consensus for how to assess the notability of more complex and cross-categorization lists..." That's exactly what this is, a cross categorization NFL PLAYERS who have played in the ARENA FOOTBALL LEAGUE. It's not off the wall, Kurt Warner being the frequently mentioned member of this group. I think it's an encyclopedic topic. To me it's a question of verifiability — where is this information coming from? Carrite (talk) 15:51, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Consensus might choose to find it WP:INTERESTING, but I will opt to wait for reliable sources that mention this grouping to distinguish this list from trivia.—Bagumba (talk) 16:09, 23 May 2012 (UTC)


 * That's reasonable. I'll just start whacking up a few things to demonstrate this is a topic of actual importance to many American football fans. This is a blog post so it's not gonna wow anybody looking for so-called "Reliable Sources": "There’s More Arena Football Players In the NFL than You Think," Get2TheLeague.com/ Carrite (talk) 17:50, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * This is better: the Los Angeles Daily News, CHANCES SLIM AND ... NFL JOBS THIN FOR ARENA PLAYERS (HighBeam) dealing with the relationship between the two leagues, including this passage: "Although there have been highly publicized AFL success stories - most notably involving quarterbacks Kurt Warner and Tommy Maddox - the league has sent only 75 players to the NFL in 17 years, an average of 4.4 players a year." — This was written in 2004. Clearly, somebody has a list to generate those numbers, eh? Carrite (talk) 17:58, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * This one the link went 404 on me... Asbury Park Press (NJ): "AFL presence: Through last Tuesday, 17 current NFL players also played in Arena Football, including two of the indoor league's most recent stars..." — Again, the connection between former AFL players and later participation in the NFL is the object of counting and important enough to expound upon in the mainstream press... Carrite (talk) 18:11, 23 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep - I believe this to be an encyclopedic topic, a useful cross-categorization of interest to readers and the object of multiple instances of writing in mainstream media. The deficiency of sourcing here is an editing issue. This is a constructable list, limited in scope and completable. Construction of the list is no more original research than construction of the (technically self-sourced) List of Nobel laureates in Literature was, for example. The ban on so-called "original research" is about the prohibition of first publication of crackpot theories on Wikipedia, not about banning people from doing constructive writing on demonstrably encyclopedic topics. Carrite (talk) 18:16, 23 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment - Needs a name change to List of National Football League players previously playing in the Arena Football League. Carrite (talk) 18:20, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Why? Wouldn't someone who previously played in the NFL and is now playing Arena football also go on the existing list? &mdash;Al E.(talk) 13:03, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * List of players who have competed in both the National Football League and Arena football? Clarityfiend (talk) 01:01, 25 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep Meets WP:LISTN. In addition to sources found by, I have also found sources from The Intelligencer ("Everyone knows the incredible Kurt Warner story, and there have been numerous others of some distinction -- wide receivers David Patten and Oronde Gadsden, kick returner Michael Lewis, quarterback Tommy Maddox, and current Tampa Bay defensive end Greg White -- who found some NFL success after honing their skills in the AFL.") and Knight Ridder ("It's just he's not the only former AFL player making an impact in the NFL. Not when there's Pittsburgh's Tommy Maddox, New Orleans' Michael Lewis, St. Louis' Andy McCollum, New England's David Patten and Atlanta's Jay Feely.") on HighBeam.—Bagumba (talk) 18:26, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 19:12, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 19:13, 23 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep in addition to the other comments above, it accomplishes what a category cannot, which is to cross-reference data. Until Wikipedia allows us to "drill-down" and cross-reference for research, this is the next best thing.--Paul McDonald (talk) 02:30, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep. It needs a lot of work, including an explanation of the relationship between the leagues, sourcing, and possibly renaming (to make clear that it is about the intersection of the sets and not the union) but this seems to be a noteworthy cross-categorization. cmadler (talk) 13:35, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep per Cmadler's comments, but who is going to volunteer to clean this up in a coherent manner? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:38, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.