Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Nazis of non-Germanic descent (3rd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The WP:NOR arguments are compelling, and people also point out that it is offensive for Wikipedia to use a pseudoscientific Nazi racial classification scheme as an inclusion criterium for our lists.  Sandstein  11:02, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

List of Nazis of non-Germanic descent
AfDs for this article:


 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

List created by a sock puppet of a banned user. Unsupported, vague and contradictory claims and the concept (never explained in the article) clear WP:OR GizzyCatBella  🍁  10:41, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete: Per the above. Also, it seems that during the previous deletion-nomination the original (banned) author voted to keep using a sock puppet-account. Vlaemink (talk) 10:59, 11 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Lists of people, Ethnic groups, History,  and Germany.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 11:06, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Strong delete per nom. Non-Germans serving in the Wehrmacht and SS were simply not all that uncommon, e.g. British Free Corps, Hiwi (volunteer), Waffen-SS foreign volunteers and conscripts. Then there's Axis Sally, Lord Haw-Haw, etc., etc. How the heck did this survive two prior Afds (including a keep verdict in 2017!)??? Clarityfiend (talk) 13:52, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment. Some of the text (and a few of the examples) could be salvaged for Jews who served in the Wehrmacht. There are plenty of sources for that. In fact, I may start that article myself. Clarityfiend (talk) 14:16, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete. Doesn't meet WP:LISTN. On a list level, which of the high-ranking Nazis were, say, germanized Slovenian Nazis and not "purely Germanic" is spectacularly unnoteworthy. Only something like a "list of Jews / people of jewish descent who were high ranking Nazis" could meet LISTN. The book Hitler's Jewish Soldiers is being mentioned as a source. It really is a book about this topic, but it is controversial (see this chronicle of higher ed article; the book was criticized as not advancing the understanding of Nazi Germany because "The paradoxes of Nazi policy are well known"; the author was criticized for describing these Nazis as "Jews" imprecisely). I'll note that we have a similar list already: Mischling (broader than just Nazis). twsabin 15:30, 12 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Keep. This is clearly a list of people with articles (so I fail to see how Non-Germans serving in the Wehrmacht and SS were simply not all that uncommon is relevant) who were of non-Germanic (not non-German) descent. Given the Nazis' racial views this is clearly a notable topic and has most certainly been discussed outside Wikipedia so does indeed meet WP:LISTN. It is also, contrary to claims above, clearly defined. Although, as I have said before, it needs retitling as not all the people listed were actually Nazis; serving in the Wehrmacht did not make one a Nazi. List of people of non-Germanic descent who served the Third Reich maybe? -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:55, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
 * @Necrothesp - Just a one example of a person from that list - Alfred Grislawski - how was his Polish decent established? 🙂 You see 🙂 WP:OR, (because of the last name I’m guessing). Check the the rest from that list, you’ll see it for yourself - pure WP:OR. - GizzyCatBella  🍁  14:40, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Well, I doubt whether someone called Grislawski wasn't of Polish descent and the Ruhrpolen are a recognised minority! But that's beside the point. Because a list may include some OR doesn't mean the whole list should be deleted. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:48, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Most is WP:OR - GizzyCatBella  🍁  03:47, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
 * What is "Germanic descent" supposed to mean exactly? Is there some kind of commonly accepted (post 1945) definition of what this entails? Because I'm only aware of the existence of "Germanic peoples" (of antiquity) and "Germanic languages". Vlaemink (talk) 10:56, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Germanic-speaking world. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:14, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
 * And Hitler was of Indonesian decent - GizzyCatBella  🍁  14:51, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 13:56, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
 * That's about speaking a Germanic language though, whereas this is about claiming descent; which clearly implies some kind of genealogy. If a Japanese citizen would learn German, would this suddenly make him of Germanic descent? Vlaemink (talk) 13:39, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
 * No, it would make him a person of native descent from a non-Germanic-speaking region who happened to speak a Germanic language. However, a person of native descent from a Germanic-speaking region would be of Germanic descent. I think that's pretty obvious. Note we have countless categories which list people of XYZ descent. Nobody seems bothered about them, so I'm not sure why this article is so opposed. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:04, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
 * The supposed definition of "Germanic world" is based on language and geography; not on ancestry. That is to say, any person born into an area (anywhere in the world) which has a sustained population of speakers of a Germanic language is included within the definition found here on Wikipedia. While this would indeed exclude the Japanese, it would include various African tribes, native Americans, Aboriginals and Southeast Asians. These people are not of Germanic descent, they are of African, Native-American, Aboriginal and Asian descent — that is, if one were to believe in the existence of relatively closed racial categories; which I personally do not, as it is not supported by science. This list assumes and implies that speaking a variant of a particular language family is intrinsically linked to ancestry, which it fundamentally isn't. Also: The list included various (partial) Jewish people, many of whom would have spoken either German or Yiddish; which are both Germanic languages proving that, at the very least, the (now blocked and banned) user who created this article didn't use your definition. Vlaemink (talk) 07:59, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * @Vlaemink The blocked sock puppet who assembled this list mostly peeked at last names and began to assign decent based on that. Here --> Paul Radomski sounded Polish to him, so he appointed Radomski as being of Polish descent despite having no sources to back it up. - GizzyCatBella  🍁  14:47, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Indeed, this entire list is OR from start to finish. Vlaemink (talk) 07:59, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete: does not meet WP:LISTN; no sources have been presented that discuss these people as a group. Unsourced original research and unnecessary cross-categorization based on bogus criteria. Note: I nominated the article for deletion in the second AfD: Articles for deletion/List of Nazis of non-Germanic descent (2nd nomination). --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:25, 16 December 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.