Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Need for Speed characters


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was delete.  Maxim (talk)  13:27, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

List of Need for Speed characters

 * – (View AfD) (View log)

A list of characters from a video game, with no sources other than a couple of bits of speculation from a fan forum. I'd dispute these being characters per se, actually, they don't seem to have much actual characterisation. Guy (Help!) 09:36, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep. Related wikipedia articles are sources. How can you say they aren't characters? What are they then? --MrStalker talk 09:45, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You can't use another Wikipedia article as a source. Ten Pound Hammer  • (Broken clamshells•Otter chirps•Review?) 11:33, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Really? I can't find that paragraph. Can you please point me to it? --MrStalker talk 11:38, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * What are they then? - Mostly, from the descriptions, the video-game equivalents of the Microsoft Office Talking Paper Clip. --Calton | Talk 14:07, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * O'rly? That's just ignorant. --MrStalker talk 17:02, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Impressive and devastating use of rhetoric, there. --Calton | Talk 01:20, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:OR. --MrStalker talk 12:00, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep. Seems like a useful page. It doesn't need too many references. I really don't see what the problem is with this article.Darkcraft 11:54, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Being useful is not a reason to keep an article. Epbr123 12:08, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Better question: useful for what, exactly? And why doesn't it need references? --Calton | Talk 14:07, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * As I said, most of the facts in there don't require references. Nobody is going to challenge 'Samantha drives a Honda Civic Si Coupe' or any of the many similar facts. I would find this article helpful if I were into Need for Speed, and I wanted to find out more about the characters. You should not decide to delete an article just because it doesn't have enough information yet, which seems to be what some of you are saying. The nomination in the first place seems to be baseless, without any proper reasons for deletion.Darkcraft 14:24, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * So whether something is challengeable is the standard for requiring refs? But more to the point, how do you know, to use your example, it's a Honda Civic Si Coupe? And no, it's not a question of whether it "has enough information yet", it's whether that information is worth anything and/or whether that missing, actually reliable, information can POSSIBLY be obtained. --Calton | Talk 16:56, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, you only need references for facts that are likely to be challenged. We aren't supposed to reference everything on Wikipedia because, well, it would just be ridiculous. Just because an article isn't good yet, that does not mean it should be deleted. Give it a chance to improve or we will never find out.Darkcraft 13:14, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Darkcraft.CheckeredFlag200 01:55, 12 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Epbr123 12:08, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete This is not just O.R. by someone who pauses the game to take notes, but one of those "buy-the-product" articles. Did the author need, or get, permission to do the "motion capture" pictures?  If you want to meet the characters, drive around and let them talk to you. Mandsford 12:37, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom.-- Kerotan Leave Me a Message  Have  a nice day :) 13:56, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. And like he said, I'm not seeing anything resembling actual characterization.
 * Strongest Keep This article can be improved. I dont see any reason why it has to be deleted. --SkyWalker 15:55, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Did you have a fact-based rather than a faith-based reason? --Calton | Talk 16:56, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * What sort of fact do you need?. Why not check this category to see how many character list are available for all other game Category:Lists of video game characters?. Why cant need for speed have its own article?.--SkyWalker 18:35, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * What sort of fact do you need? I dunno, maybe for This article can be improved - which, unless you offer something resembling evidence and not handwaving, constitutes an article of faith and not an actual argument. And the last two sentences are rebutted by this page. --Calton | Talk 01:20, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Neutral No notability for any of these characters is established, but they do use real world actors to play these lead character roles.  Corpx 17:01, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep. This is a list of fictional characters from a well-known series. Sources aren't needed.CheckeredFlag200 18:51, 8 September 2007 (UTC) And besides, look. If this is deleted, every single character list page on Wikipedia will be deleted. So deleting this page will be COMPLETELY pointless.CheckeredFlag200 23:55, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * That was a particularly bad version of the old WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS argument. --Calton | Talk 01:20, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not talking about THAT argument. The page doesn't need sources, as ALL the information is covered in the Need For Speed series. Besides, there are several Wikipedia articles which are similar to this which do not have sources (e.g. List of Backyard Kids).71.92.70.77 19:45, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete - appears to be 99%+ Original Research - fchd 07:44, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
 * There is very little OR in this, almost everything in the article is explicitly stated in the games.Darkcraft 13:17, 10 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete per nominator (JzG). --Tony Sidaway 17:31, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
 * So...delete because the article doesn't have sources? That isn't a reason for deletion.Darkcraft 13:19, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes it is, per WP:NOR. No sources is the same as original research. --MrStalker talk 15:45, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, in particular delete because we have an article Need for Speed that covers this subject quite well. Spending effort describing elements that amount to avatars of the software, and have no independent verification, seems unnecessary.  If you play the game you will encounter these character.  If you do not, you will not, and the cost to you of not knowing about them is zero.  They are only relevant if you play the game, and if the producers of the game have not bothered to produce some kind of manual this encyclopedia is not the site to use to fill in the gaps. Write it up on your blog. --Tony Sidaway 17:50, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep. All right. Here is an argument which shows that it should keep. Aren't there Wikipedians (like me) around who want to know about the characters without getting all the actual games to learn information about them? Information for free is better than getting all the games for at least $500.131.215.108.218 22:30, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * If I wanted to meet the characters, I guess I would rent the game for a day or two. (In all fairness, Need for Speed is pretty fun, on several levels).  On the other hand, if I had no intention of even looking at the game, I doubt I would want to learn much more about it.  Mandsford 23:11, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * BUT THIS IS WIKIPEDIA!!!131.215.108.218 23:23, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, and on wikipedia we have to follow guidelines like WP:NOR. --MrStalker talk 12:12, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem is that to follow WP:NOR, we have to say that the facts come from the actual games in which they are in!131.215.108.218 22:22, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 * And don't some people actually want to know about the characters? Mandsford, you are selfish.131.215.108.218 22:32, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 * And isn't this list better on Wikipedia than articles about every single episode of The Simpsons???131.215.108.218 23:16, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It's no worse. I don't care for all the individual articles about The Simpsons either.  Save the article on your computer.  Or print it out.  Or even cut and paste it onto a Need for Speed forum or into another Need for Speed article like "Liberty City" (I think that's one of the towns in NFS).  Selfish though I am, I respect you for fighting to keep the article, and for writing part of it.  But I think your argument (that people who won't play "Need for Speed" still want to know about the characters) isn't very persuasive.  You've read the entire article by now (assuming you didn't write it in the first place), and... now that you know about the characters, do you intend to refer back to the article on other occasions?   Or, more likely, are you going to rent or buy one of the Need For Speed games, play it, and develop your own impressions of those same characters?  Like I say, save the article to your computer.  Nearly all of us have written something that got deleted, and that's part of their system.... but it's far better to have written something and seen it published here for awhile, even if it's eventually rejected.  Far better than submitting something for consideration and never seeing it published.  131, you've got talent as a writer.  Get yourself an account (it's free) so you can have a screen name, and start creating.  Remember, having something on Wikipedia is a privilege, not a right. Mandsford 00:53, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Libery City is a city in the Grand Theft Auto series, not the Need for Speed series. Saying something like that is close to blasphemy. --MrStalker talk 11:07, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 131.215.108.218 (actually me) did not write any part of the page.71.92.70.77 01:19, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * BTW, I am a sockpuppet - just to tell you - I am CheckeredFlag200. I would definitely refer back to the article rather than get the game, as I don't want to waste my time buying things from Half.com.71.92.70.77 01:23, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Weak keep. The article needs sourcing, no doubt, but there isn't any original research going on here; this is stuff directly from the games. The characters in the games aren't exactly hugely complex, but they are indicated in the game's cutscenes and other material.  The problem here isn't that the characters aren't relevant to the game, it's that the article isn't sourced.  Source, then keep.  If sourcing isn't possible, delete. Xihr 08:34, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The subject of the article itself cannot be used as a source. See WP:RS. --MrStalker talk 09:19, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying it can be. I'm pointing out why some of the delete arguments being made are invalid.  The article needs sourcing, however the claims of original research and lack of characterization so this is all made up are false. Xihr 09:35, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * If the information cannot be referenced to a reliable third party source, it's original research. --MrStalker talk 10:47, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment I was approached to close here, looking into the article this provides one independent source to one listed character. I have an issue with the claim made in this source that Krystal Forscutt is the first Australian to be a character in an EA game because EA games have been making ARL and AFL games since 1994(thats my WP:OR) so under the circumstances I'll refrain from closing. Gnangarra 12:21, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * What does that have to do with anything? --MrStalker talk 12:26, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Even if it was a reliable source, the coverage is too trivial. It only refers to one of the characters, and the news article is centred around the actress rather than the character. Epbr123 12:44, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know. How the **** does that translate into refraining from closure? --MrStalker talk 12:58, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Since the concerns raised were as a result of your request to be fair I'll check for more sources now. Gnangarra 13:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.