Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of New Zealand debaters


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Stifle (talk) 08:17, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

List of New Zealand debaters

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

Delete-I noted my concerns in the talk page about 4 days ago, but on reflection I think this may as well go to AfD now. It is obvious from the empty talk page, and history of almost entirely anonymous edits, that nobody is going to come to the talk page to discuss this. Basically, this should be deleted because it is not notable. I am sympathetic to debating articles, I've been a contributor to a number of them, but this is a blatant attempt to dodge the criteria for notability given on the list of debaters page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_debaters). There is nothing notable about being a "notable" NZ debater, some of these IVs are small and insignificant, and this is basically a clear glory page that attempts to dodge the extensive discussion and rulings on debater notability. If you have won a world championship or something, fine, you are listed on the list of debaters page, but this is just vanity of no note. by all means, these IVs can have their own pages, that should mostly fit in notability. But to give a page to list all the previous finalists and top performers, for some very average IVs, is for mine a step way too far. To conclude; let the previous winners be noted as a subsection on the page of each IV (assuming the IV is notable), but all these lists of stuff covered elsewhere is just too much JJJ999 (talk) 03:15, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of New Zealand-related deletion discussions.   -- VG &#x260E; 16:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete unless non-trivial references can be found for each entry. dramatic (talk) 19:27, 4 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep. First, people make anonymous edits because they can't be bothered logging in. It doesn't mean the information isn't relevant. Secondly, in the sense that it is New Zealand-specific, it has different criteria to the global "list of debaters", but what is wrong with that? Dodge is pejorative and unfair word. There is something "notable" about being a good debater _within New Zealand_, and that is the point of the article - as it is for the list of Canadian debaters - to identify the best debaters within New Zealand on one page. I don't see why there can't be lists of debaters for each major country that participates in debating. Obviously in the pantheon of IVs around the world most New Zealand ones don't rate, but that's not the point of the article. (talk) 01:54, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * What is notable about being a debater in NZ? Where are the sources to show this? It is just a hobby like any other. People who participate in hobbies do not need to be listed, by country or otherwise.
 * Comment - when I think of "notable" New Zealand debaters, I think of Tim Shadbolt, Ginette McDonald, A. K. Grant, Jim Hopkins, Raybon Kan et al. - for as far as I can see it is primarily the celebrity debates which get widespread promotion or audiences. What is the audience for a typical University debate, and what proportion of it is drawn from on-campus? dramatic (talk) 03:55, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You have to feel for dramatic, who has actually made positive contributions to NZ debating articles, but can clearly recognise that this list is in no way notable.JJJ999 (talk) 04:58, 6 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep. Further to that, I would point out that New Zealand has two distinct styles of debating that do not occur in other parts of the world in a competitive University environment. In this sense, the achievements are notable because they are not relevant in regard to the List of Debaters from around the words. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.79.95.61 (talk) 13:00, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * How does that make them notable? The hobby is distinctively NZish, but so what?


 * Delete. A list of non-notable people who've won non-notable awards in different competitions. Hence entries are not even comparable. Pointless.Yobmod (talk) 20:10, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * At my house we have a unique game of hopscotch, played nowhere else in the world. That doesn't make me notable for wikipedia though, something you've not addressed in the slightest.  I'm happy to have this argument with you, but first you need to provide some actual evidence of their notability.  Are there even 2 in opposition to deleting this, or is it just the same guy (but unsigned this time)?JJJ999 (talk) 23:10, 5 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete - I've thought very carefully before making this recommendation. But in the end, I'm not convinced that a list of University Debators from NZ is notable. Comparing this list with the Canada list is not valid - the Canada list includes public speakers, the NZ one does not; the Canada list is focused towards world championships, the NZ one is not. The information would be better listed in the articles on the competitions. See the article on the Golden Shears for an example. The equivalent list to this one would be List of New Zealand shearers, which would be a non-notable list of cruft. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 06:01, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Both this list and List of debaters seem to have defined their own rules for their content, which are contrary to the relevant guidelines. According to Stand-alone lists (specifically "Lists of people") the people in a list should be "selected for importance/notability in that category and should have Wikipedia articles (or the reasonable expectation of an article in the future)". In other words, these lists should only contain people sufficiently notable for their debating to warrant having a wikipedia article dedicated to them. I suspect that would strip the list of New Zealand debaters down to nothing, making its existence pointless. Can anyone point to a New Zealander notable enough for their debating to warrant their own article? The List of debaters article might have a handful of people who have had significant media coverage specifically as debaters, the rest should be removed after a suitable warning period to allow editors to search for evidence of notability of the debaters. Ryan Paddy (talk) 23:41, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.