Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Palestinian fatalities resulting from Israeli attacks on the Gaza Strip in 2008


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. The prevailing sentiment is that this article is not only much too inadequately sourced, but also violates WP:NOT, which we tend to understand also as prohibiting the excessively detailed reporting of incidents resulting in very numerous deaths (such as large-scale accidents, massacres or wars), whether or not the people who have died are actually named. I'm amenable to userfying this if someone believes that this could be the basis of a much more concise, well-sourced section in some appropriate article (to the extent that consensus allows for its inclusion and such content does not already exist).  Sandstein  07:24, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

List of Palestinian fatalities resulting from Israeli attacks on the Gaza Strip in 2008

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

Wikipedia is not a memorial. Nor is Wikipedia a soapbox. While deep sympathy goes out to those associated with the victims, this is not the place to create a memorial to them. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 00:09, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep If there is a list of attacks on Israel in 2008 that lists not only deaths but also injuries, then there should be a list of attacks BY Israel in 2008. Or did you nominate List of rocket and mortar attacks in Israel in 2008 for deletion as well? Trachys (talk) 00:13, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment please feel at liberty to nominate any article that you feel does not qualify for inclusion here to be deleted or improved. Please read WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 00:17, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment the other article you refer to differs markedly from this one. It has almost no personal names mentioned, and all the attacks have citations.  It is about the attacks, and is not a memorial.  Do please bear in mind that each WP article stands or falls on its own unique merits.  Precedent is not set here.  Fiddle Faddle (talk) 00:25, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * So then suggest that the names of the victims be edited out. And do you not consider B'Tselem a reliable source? Trachys (talk) 00:28, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment This article is a list of the fatalities. Thus it contains, by definition, the roll of the dead.  Without the names it becomes a statistical list of attacks with qualitative descriptions of the attacks.  Individual citations render each wholly verifiable.  That is a different article, and one that I would welcome along the lines of the other article you used as an example.  I have no knowledge of nor interest in the actual topic.  My interest is the article and the encyclopaedia.  I expect the source you quote is reliable, but I have no knowledge of it.  Fiddle Faddle (talk) 00:33, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It is now a statistical list of attacks with qualitative descriptions of the attacks. The article states the source of the data in a conspicuous manner. Interested users may decide on the reliability of the source. I for one consider the source independent and more reliable than, say, the New York Times. Trachys (talk) 01:31, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I see it as a substantial improvement, though totals are what is required rather that a list of individuals who are not named by personal attributes. There are still a great many named and non notable individuals, however.  I really do not see why you are worrying about the source.  It feels rather "Methinks s/he doth protest too much" to me.  If you are confident of your source then you are confident. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 07:13, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Keep. These type of lists are not memorials or soapboxes. See:
 * List of insurgent fatality reports in Iraq - Kept after AfD. From the article intro: "Besides serving as an indicator of some of the numbers of insurgent deaths during specific time periods, this article allows readers to investigate the circumstances of those deaths by reading the citation articles. It also allows readers and researchers to investigate patterns in the type of tactics by insurgents and the coalition."
 * List of Iraqi security forces fatality reports in Iraq
 * List of rocket and mortar attacks in Israel in 2008 --Timeshifter (talk) 01:40, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep--Per WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS:"In consideration of precedent and consistency, though, identifying articles of the same nature that have been established and continue to exist on Wikipedia may provide extremely important insight into general notability of concepts". Change to Delete in its current form per WP:COATRACK.--J.Mundo (talk) 02:45, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't see how this article overall has a problem along the lines of WP:COATRACK, as long as the introduction is kept WP:NPOV. This list, along with
 * List of rocket and mortar attacks in Israel in 2008
 * 2008 Israel-Hamas ceasefire
 * Timeline of the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict
 * and other related articles provide essential background info to 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict that can not be covered adequately in that article. The alleged cause of the breakdown of the truce on both sides were these types of events. So readers want to know about violent events of both sides before the war. --Timeshifter (talk) 11:45, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep Contains more detail, for its more limited subject, than List of rocket and mortar attacks in Israel in 2008. Perhaps it could be renamed to List of Israeli attacks in the Gaza Strip in 2008? It is an indispensable adjunct to the facts in 'LormaiIi2008'. Note also that Israeli and Hamas forces have taken to propagandizing about how many they have killed, not how few; this article would in that light be a token of Israel's success. As you can see, the soapbox is in the eye of the beholder. Keep the useful facts. Anarchangel (talk) 02:43, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:NOT Tavix (talk) 03:22, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete at least in its present form. As an absolute minimum, it needs sources. We do not usually try to keep track of every death in events like these. DGG (talk) 04:57, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete, mainly per DGG. In addition, unless there exists good reliable secondary sources for all of these deaths, I have no choice but to think that this is basically a memorial. MuZemike 06:54, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep this is a list of attacks, and not a memorial to any of the dead - it doesn't even name them. It needs much better sourcing, but that should be possible using reliable sources, and isn't a reason to delete. Nick-D (talk) 07:18, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions.   —Nick-D (talk) 07:18, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Note that the article has been substantially altered to remove the majority, but not all, of the roll of the dead. It would be valid for prior !voters to check that they have make their decisions based upon the article as it stands now rather than the article I nominated originally.  The closing admin will need to validate with some precision the point from which a consensus on this article should be built.  Fiddle Faddle (talk) 07:24, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment. B'Tselem is the source for all the entries according to Trachys in a previous comment. It is a very reliable source. The sourcing needs to be explained clearly in the article, though. And the main index pages need to be linked to. --Timeshifter (talk) 08:08, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep Just we like we have List of rocket and mortar attacks in Israel in 2008 and List of rocket and mortar attacks in Israel in 2009. However, the nominated article needs better sourcing. Imad marie (talk) 08:33, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions.   -- • Gene93k (talk) 09:31, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Palestine-related deletion discussions.   -- • Gene93k (talk) 09:32, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete. This is essentially a content fork from B'Tselem. A link to the B'Tselem source can be added as an external link to 2008 Israel–Gaza conflict. -- Nudve (talk) 09:47, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't believe there is a single page at http://www.btselem.org that separates out Palestinian fatalities resulting from Israeli attacks on the Gaza Strip in 2008. If there were, I would agree with you. --Timeshifter (talk) 10:21, 16 January 2009 (UTC) (Note: See later comments.)
 * The source this article explicitly uses is this one, although it does detail previous years as well. I don't know, it looks like a mirror. -- Nudve (talk) 10:51, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * After looking at that B'Tselem chart, I now think that the Wikipedia list is much better. The Wikipedia list has a table of contents by month, and there is no need to scroll horizontally for each entry in the chart. With my 17 inch monitor I have to scroll to read the info for each entry in the chart. So, since the Wikipedia article is basically finished, and much improved after going through this AfD, I think it should be kept. It is relevant at this time. Plus in the wikipedia article there is a bar chart that helps see deaths over time. --Timeshifter (talk) 13:35, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete. Agree with Nudve. The only source cited is the B'Tselem website (apart from the lead which gives a very POV background to the conflict and is not really related to the main subject of the article). Looks like this article is a mirror of B'Tselem. Best. Tkalisky (talk) 11:41, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * B'Tselem is the source for casualties in the infobox of Second Intifada. See: http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp It is considered to be a reliable source. The intro can be made more WP:NPOV. --Timeshifter (talk) 13:52, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

'''Comment. More casualty lists: I think that these Wikipedia lists are encyclopedic and relevant. They are WP:NPOV. And they have multiple references for some entries. Very useful for readers and researchers. The list in question here could benefit from some more references for some of the individual entries. --Timeshifter (talk) 13:52, 16 January 2009 (UTC) '''
 * List of Israeli civilian casualties in the Second Intifada
 * List of Palestinian civilian casualties in the Second Intifada
 * I'd say such lists have entirely too much detail. We don't keep lists of traffic fatalities or murder incidents. They need to be consolidated at some higher level.&mdash;RJH (talk) 22:56, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep  Sean.hoyland  - talk 17:32, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete as memorial - if kept, in needs a neutral rename along the lines of the "civilian casualties in the Second Intifada" pair, which should also be deleted IMHO. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 19:17, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete: It would be a much better idea to have articles called Causalities of the 2008-2009 Gaza Conflict and Causalities of the 2007-2008 Gaza Conflict. This page here is structured as simply a memorial. The use of a single source is also extremely problematic. The Squicks (talk) 19:51, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep - Thousands are dead at this point, this is very notable and encyclopedic. More sourced information will be added about the victims in time.Critical Chris (talk) 20:09, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Comment: What do people think about merging this information to the pages Causalities of the 2008-2009 Gaza Conflict and Causalities of the 2007-2008 Gaza Conflict, both of which I believe were proposed for creation before? The Squicks (talk) 20:20, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment It would be helpful if the editors who recently voted to delete the article on the grounds that it is a memorial would explain how an article which doesn't name any of the dead serves this purpose. Nick-D (talk) 22:35, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment&mdash;In its current form this article has too much detail. Compare, for example to Casualties of the Iraq War, Rwandan_Genocide or War in Darfur, which are orders of magnitude larger. This is just a demonstration of the old Stalin quote, "The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic." The article needs a significant re-write; hopefully well after this tiny war is finished.&mdash;RJH (talk) 22:53, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Weak delete My concerns with the article in its current for are: 1. Each line needs to be sourced otherwise any IP with an axe to grind can add whatever they feel like. Although there is a list of references at the bottom, there are no citations on most if not all of what's listed 2. Is it possible to actually keep a list of this nature current? 3. The fact this war is underway and that lots of people have died is relevant and notable, but is it necessary to itemize everyone? Has a similar list been created for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars? For the Six Day War? For World War II? I can't help but feel that this sort of a list is serving a non-WP:NPOV purpose by spotlighting the fact that lots of Palestinians are getting killed in a conflict that is current and controversial, and I believe that's beyond what Wikipedia is supposed to be about. 23skidoo (talk) 03:36, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete another WP:COATRACK/WP:POVFORK horror. In any case Causalities of the 2007-2008 Israel-Gaza Conflict would be the title, but 2007-2008 Israel-Gaza conflict needs to be worked upon first. Thanks!--Cerejota (talk) 00:21, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I did a lot of editing at Casualties of the Iraq War. I also supported the editors of
 * List of insurgent fatality reports in Iraq
 * List of Iraqi security forces fatality reports in Iraq
 * This list covers before the 2007-2008 Israel-Gaza conflict, so I don't know why both shouldn't be worked on now. --Timeshifter (talk) 11:59, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete, POV fork intended more to push a political position than to inform the encyclopedia reader. --Delirium (talk) 03:15, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Keep:
 * So much information about Palestine is already censored or suppressed. This censorship makes it difficult or impossible to understand the situation in Palestine.  The censorship creates a void that is filled with stereotypes, demonization, and dehumanization.  Israelis and Palestinians alike are harmed by this war propaganda.
 * The information in this article may not be "notable" to those who put their faith in war-making, but it is certainly notable for the direct and indirect victims of war, and that includes most of us. An encyclopedia needs to take into account the needs of the majority of its readers, and I, for one, need this information!
 * I notice that pro-war forces are also trying to delete 2008-09_Israel–Gaza_Foreign_involvement. This article contains WP:RS information that was moved out of the main 2008–2009_Israel–Gaza_conflict article.  We are encouraged to move the information from the main article into subarticles, but if the subarticles are then deleted, valuable information is lost.  Suppression of information is inconsistent with the purpose of an encyclopedia and with wikipedia's stated aims.  See WP:NOTCENSORED NonZionist (talk) 19:33, 16 January 2009 (UTC) moved from Talk:List of Palestinian fatalities resulting from Israeli attacks on the Gaza Strip in 2008 by 211.214.128.185 (talk) 04:12, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete. If it's unsourced there's nothing to discuss. There's no reason to analyze WP:NOT, WP:POVFORK, and WP:COATRACK. -- brew crewer  (yada, yada) 04:18, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It is sourced to here: . --Timeshifter (talk) 11:51, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment. I think the article would be more useful and relevant if it stopped counting 2008 Palestinian deaths at the beginning of the main Israeli airstrikes Dec. 27, 2008. --Timeshifter (talk) 11:54, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep. Il would even write Strong keep The pair of articles this article is modelled after: List of Qassam rocket attacks and List of rocket and mortar attacks in Israel in 2008 not only cite each and every names of the victims, except the 4 on Dec 27 and 29 2008 (June 28, 2004: Four-year-old Afik Zahavi, and Mordehai Yosefof, 49, Sderot; September 29, 2004: Yuval Abebeh, 4, and Dorit Benisian, 2, Sderot; July 14, 2005: Dana Galkowicz, 22, Kibbutz Netiv Ha'asara; March 28, 2006: Near the Kibbutz Nachal Oz two Israeli-Arabs (Salam Ziadin and Khalid, 16, a Bedouin father and son) are killed when a dormant Qassam rocket they find in the Nahal Oz area explodes; November 15,2006: Faina Slutzker, 57, Sderot; May 21, 2007: Shir-El Feldman, 32, Sderot; February 27 2008, Ron Yahye, 47-year-old student, near Sapir Academic College, Negev; May 9 2008, 48-year-old Jimmy Kdoshim, while working in his garden in Kibbutz Kfar Aza; May 12 2008, Shuli Katz, a 70-year-old resident of Kibbutz Gvaram; May 19 2008, Shir-El Friedman, 35-year-old woman; June 5 2008, Amnon Ronsenberg, a 52-year-old father of three), which is legitimate, those victims deserve to be remembered of, but those two pages cite every rocket attack!
 * For the sake of Wikipedia's fairness not only this page deserves to be kept, but also reverted to its first status by User:Trachys where individuals names are given, which is more esay to verify than anonymous.
 * About the argument NOT. It is clearly is out of topic: the text says: "Wikipedia is not the place to honor departed friends and relatives. Subjects of encyclopedia articles must satisfy Wikipedia's notability requirements" Victim's name quoted in List of Qassam rocket attacks, List of rocket and mortar attacks in Israel in 2008 and in this article are not "departed friends and relatives." and they hare not "Subjects of encyclopedia articles": they do not have their own article entry! They are victims whose name are public!
 * B%27Tselem is the original source. It is a serious and reliable Israelian source. It is the main source for this article published on Jan 15 and nominated for deletion the next day. Wikipedia being a work in progress more might come in the future. Ist form is also a big ergonomic improvement from the original source
 * http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/Casualties_Full_Data.asp?Category=1&region=GAZA
 * Every village in Europe keeps the list of the names and ages of the victims of WW1 and WW2 on marble stones. This is Internet in the 21st century. The modern lists may be kept on the Wikipedia: once again it does not infringe Wikipedia's rule NOT because each victim does not have it's individual article! --Cvrx (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 13:27, 18 January 2009 (UTC).


 * Good points. We should avoid systemic bias, or the perception of it. I suggest people read the info, talk archives, and current talk page of WikiProject Countering systemic bias. List of Qassam rocket attacks has details, names, dates, charts, etc.. --Timeshifter (talk) 14:48, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I just wanted to log as nominator that the nomination was simply that, a nomination of this article. I have no bias in this conflict, which I see as appalling, but have insufficient understanding of the two sides to hold a valid opinion of the rights and wrongs of each party in the dispute.  It is the article in isolation that concerns me, not the conflict.  Avoidance of bias is done by the creation of articles and deletion of articles without reference in those processes to the politics behind the article.  Fiddle Faddle (talk) 15:11, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * In your nomination your reason to delete the article was "Wikipedia is not a memorial. Nor is Wikipedia a soapbox." I could see how one might think the article might be a memorial or a soapbox. It may need some work to be WP:NPOV. But I don't see it as a memorial in terms of Wikipedia's definition. From WP:NOTMEMORIAL: "Memorials. Wikipedia is not the place to honor departed friends and relatives." The topic of the article is notable in my opinion. As is List of Qassam rocket attacks. Because arguments about the violent attacks of both sides before the war have been frequently noted in the media. There is not enough room in Timeline of the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict or 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict. There is no room left in those articles for anything more. Many articles have been spun out. I help edit 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict. It was getting around 350 edits a day recently. It is unrealistic to cover much more in encyclopedia detail in those 2 already-large articles. --Timeshifter (talk) 10:03, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment. That sounds more like an argument to delete List of Qassam rocket attacks and the other related articles than an argument to keep this one. These sorts of "list our side's grievances" articles seem more useful to POV-pushers than to Wikipedia's educational goals of spreading neutral, encyclopedic information, which is better done in unified treatments like Timeline of the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict than POV-forks of "bad things Palestinians did to Israelis" and "bad things Israelis did to Palestinians". See also WP:OTHERSTUFF. --Delirium (talk) 22:01, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Please see my reply higher up to Fiddle Faddle. Also, it is not necessarily POV pushing. At least not for me. It is just a matter of space. We could combine the violent acts into one article, but it would be huge. --Timeshifter (talk) 10:03, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * That may be an indication that a comprehensive list of violent acts in a particular conflict simply isn't the proper role of an encyclopedia to document (as compared to the conflict itself and its context, which are good subjects for articles). For example, a list of every single bombing, artillery, or infantry action taken by either side even a single World War II campaign would be quite large and certainly couldn't fit into, say Battle of the Bulge or D-Day, but we don't break them out into List of German fatalities resulting from the Allied advance during the Normandy Invasion. --Delirium (talk) 10:31, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually the prelude to World War II is covered by many articles. Timeline of the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict does not cover the period preceding the war. It links to 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict. There is not enough room there to do more than cursory coverage of the background to the war. --Timeshifter (talk) 10:46, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete/Merge with Timeline of the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict. --GHcool (talk) 17:52, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete as a POV fork/memorial. Themfromspace (talk) 03:23, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep but please consider renaming the article (perhaps to List of Israeli attacks in the Gaza Strip in 2008 and removing the names of the diseased, as per the concerns raised by User:Timtrent. Dynablaster (talk) 10:44, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

January 1rst
 * Keep No offence,but I feel giving the statistics of how many people died in a day are redundant for an encyclopedia. Perhaps it'd be better if only ranking officials were included with a total of civilians casualties at the bottom of the entry. EX :

Nizar Rayan senior commander Total civilian casualties - XX

--Roaring Siren (talk) 20:01, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Move and expand to List of fatalities from Israel-Gaza conflict. Has a ring of neutrality to it... sounds like A4. Xavexgoem (talk) 20:32, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete the topic is covered in sufficient, encyclopaedic detail in 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict and Timeline of the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict. Guest9999 (talk) 23:35, 21 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.