Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Perry Mason episode murderers


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. There is consensus to delete; I don't see consensus that any of the content needs to be merged into any existing article. Girth Summit  (blether) 15:19, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

List of Perry Mason episode murderers

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Procedural nomination following closure of a related RfD, courtesy ping to. signed,Rosguill talk 05:31, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. signed,Rosguill talk 05:31, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Delete, obviously. This is a WP:FORK of List of Perry Mason episodes by an editor trying to avoid consensus on the article talk page page. Without context -- like a plot summary with character descriptions -- this is just a useless fork of List of Perry Mason episodes. And since what is also wholly consistent throughout the Perry Mason series is that revealing the identities of the murderers is the entire point of the show, listing them makes the list worse than useless. And if you don't have a reliable source for each and every one, they shouldn't be in Wikipedia at all, so this fork fails that test. This is NOT an actual search term.--Calton &#124; Talk 05:49, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 05:56, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 05:59, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 06:00, 6 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete - Plot information that is sourced only to either IMDB or the episodes themselves on Paramount+. While some individual episodes here and there may have sources discussing them in-depth, there are no sources that would allow this list to pass WP:LISTN.  I'd say this probably runs afoul of WP:INDISCRIMINATE as well. Rorshacma (talk) 06:39, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep & Contribute - Character information also sourced to Kelleher, Brian; Merrill, Diana (1 December 1987). Perry Mason TV Show Book, The. St Martins Press. ISBN 978-0312006693. Love, Zeus Maximus  talkersstalkers 13:16, 6 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep & Contribute - To quote Ivan vector's squirrel, "...That discussion resolved that the information should not be added to the existing list. There was nothing about that discussion that would preclude creating a separate list...". Love, Zeus Maximus  talkersstalkers 13:16, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep & Contribute - That discussion also initially targeted Spoiler as the reason for non-inclusion. When that argument was refuted, "formatting" became the next complaint.  Both issues are simply and effectively resolved by having a separate article. Love,  Zeus Maximus  talkersstalkers 13:16, 6 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep & Contribute - Article, as titled, is returned as Number 1 result of search for same title at Bing, as Number 2 result of search for "List of Perry Mason murderers" at Bing, and Number 1 result of search for "Perry Mason murderers" at Bing. Article, as titled, is returned as Number 3 result of search for same title at "another" search engine.  Pretty impressive search results for an article that has spent the majority of its existence being suppressed or redirected. Love,  Zeus Maximus  talkersstalkers 13:16, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Keep & Contribute - Most, if not all, Victims, Accused, and Murderers are mentioned as such in the articles of each individual actor playing those roles, which implies that hundreds of articles will link to this article for readers in search of more information or context. Quite a big deal is also made of actors completing the "trifecta" of being a victim, a defendant, and a murderer on Perry Mason, and this article places all of that information in one easily searched, easily linked location. Love, Zeus Maximus  talkersstalkers 13:16, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
 * articles for deletion is not a majority vote, and typically editors are restricted to making one bolded "keep" or "delete" comment in a deletion discussion. Please organize your thoughts into one such comment. Also, your signature is rendering as white text on a white background, in other words it is invisible, and thus not acceptable. Please see the guidance at WP:CUSTOMSIG/P and WP:SIGAPP and correct it. Thanks. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:09, 6 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment - I don't really have an opinion on this, I can see benefit to inclusion but also agree with the arguments made against inclusion in the referenced talk page discussion. Zeus Maximus' effort to add this info to the existing list resulted in a mess, but I don't agree that the discussion about including the info there created a consensus to exclude this information from Wikipedia generally. The structure of Perry Mason episodes having a murder victim, a (nearly always) wrongly-accused suspect, and the eventual surprise revelation of the real perpetrator, I believe makes this information worthwhile to collect and document, in the same way that we have an entire separate article dedicated to the opening of The Simpsons and that each Simpsons episode includes information on its opening couch gag. As for sourcing, IMDb is unacceptable of course but I don't see why citing the episodes themselves fails WP:V, basically per WP:BLUE. If anyone were to dispute that a particular murderer in the list was actually the murderer in that episode, they can verify by watching the episode, and any argument that the character in the episode named the murderer is actually not the murderer is nonsense (WP:GREENCHEESE is also applicable here). Lastly, WP:SPOILERS suggests that we don't remove information just because it might "spoil the plot" for viewers; I also highly doubt that a reader looking for a list of specific plot information on a show that concluded its run more than half a century ago can possibly claim to be upset for having plot details revealed to them. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:57, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
 * The closer should also be aware that a copy of this list exists at User:Zeus Maximus/Mason VAMMM. It may need to be history-merged to this page, and/or deleted along with it if that's where consensus leans. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:58, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Using the episodes themselves as sources isn't an issue of WP:V, its more the issue that the episodes are not secondary, so they would not help pass the WP:GNG or WP:LISTN. I have no real opinion on whether or not information of this sort should be included on the episode list or not, I'm just of the opinion that as there are no sources demonstrating that the specific concept of "every murderer in Perry Mason" as a group or set is independently notable, it should not exist as an independent article/list.  Rorshacma (talk) 17:28, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Sure, I don't disagree, it's clearly a primary source. What I'm saying is the material cited isn't contentious or contestable - what's in the episode is what's in the episode. You're right that that doesn't establish notability. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:59, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete, or userfy . So in episode 133 (a typical example), Walter Eastman is accused of the murder, but it turns out that Kirby Evans is the real murderer. How is this information of use to anyone? In virtually every single episode, a one-appearance character is accused of a crime and another one-appearance character is uncovered as the real perpetrator. The same pattern, of course, repeats in dozens of other shows in the genre. I can see some sliver of utility as a project-space page or userspace page for maintaining information about episodes of the show, but none in mainspace. BD2412  T 00:25, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
 * On second thought, merge into List of Perry Mason episodes. All of this information is episode information. BD2412  T 00:29, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Guilty as charged (delete) per Calton and utter lack of context (without synopses, motives and murderers' names are meaningless). No merger to the List of Perry Mason episodes, as there are no synopses there either. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:05, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete. Seting aside the problematic title (can you murder an episode?) this is WP:TRIVIA/WP:FANCRUFT. Such a list belongs on a fan-wiki, but not on Wikipedia. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 06:30, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete per Clarityfiend and Piotrus. Took the words out of my mouth. There's no need for a separate article for this when you can just insert this same information under each episode in the episode list. AdoTang (talk) 16:31, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete the consensus was that this information should not be added to the main episode page, and I don't see why this information on its own would be noteable enough to warrant a list page. Mousymouse (talk) 04:38, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:LISTN. I do not see how this topic is notable enough to be discussed in its own list. I do not see what makes this different or notable enough to have its own list versus the countless of other detective or crime dramas out there. Aoba47 (talk) 19:27, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete per the above. 🏳️‍🌈 Chicdat Bawk to me!  10:36, 11 June 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.