Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Roman Catholic churches in Leicester


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. There are six keep comments, two delete comments, one delete or merge, and one merge. The majority of those involved are for keeping. The delete comments focus on the non-notable content of the list, but do not deal with the concept of the list, which is valid within our criteria. There are no policy based reasons to delete. However, the list does need cleaning up and sourcing. We do not know the accuracy of the list for example, so the list cannot be relied upon. SilkTork (talk) 16:17, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

List of Roman Catholic churches in Leicester

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Non-notable list. We don't a mere directory of current and former churches in a city of just one denomination, of just any small random area, and in particular not just Roman Catholic ones in just Leicester, a small city. If there are any notable Roman Catholic ones in Leicester, those are covered, or could be covered at Leicester. wp:NOTDIRECTORY. See three recent related AFDs closed with delete or draftify decisions: Articles for deletion/Methodist churches in Leicester, Articles for deletion/List of Baptist churches in Leicester, and Articles for deletion/Congregational Churches in Leicester. See also related Articles for deletion/Anglican churches in Leicester, running concurrently with this one. Doncram (talk) 05:49, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 08:45, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 08:45, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 08:46, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 08:46, 30 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep The nomination's claim is false as we have plenty of lists of churches in cities such as Oxford, Cambridge, London, Moscow, &c. Lists are valid content on Wikipedia per WP:SAL while WP:NOTDIR is irrelevant because that just tells us to avoid operational detail.  In this case, this would mean that we wouldn't detail the times of the church services or the cost of a wedding.  Andrew🐉(talk) 09:57, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * (Adapting my own comment at other AFD) Well, i modified the nomination statement towards saying that we don't want a list like this one, in Leicester which is a very small city, where there in fact is nothing special about the Catholic churches. There are 3 with bluelinks;  no info is provided by footnotes or otherwise asserting any significance to any of the others, at all.  I presume they are no more notable than car repair shops, say.  I dunno about List of churches in London, that is qualitatively different because it is about notable examples only i think, and about all denominations and about a huge city;  maybe it makes sense to split the list of very notable London churches out of the London article.  And the all-notable-churches-in-Cambridge list-article has 5 from before 1300 or so, etc.  For the Roman Catholic churches in Leicester, well most of them should not be mentioned anywhere because they are so non-notable and there is absolutely nothing to say about them.  For the few (3 have articles) that may be notable, we don't need a mini-list, they should just be mentioned in the Leicester article.  And they are mentioned now in List of Roman Catholic churches in the United Kingdom, anyhow, which is obviously broader in scope, and is justifiably split out of the world-wide list of the same, and can provide far more value for the reader by presenting them in context with other Roman Catholic churches.
 * And, though I am not sure whether i like it or not, there exists Places of worship in Leicester, too, more comparable to the List of churches in London because both cover all types of notable churches, not just Roman Catholic ones. There is no separate List of Roman Catholic churches in London because it has not been deemed necessary by anyone to split that out from the overall list of United Kingdom ones.  And it will never be necessary to split ou just the Leicester ones. --Doncram (talk) 19:19, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The London list has a very long tag suggest that it be split. Andrew🐉(talk) 19:30, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 * or it could be culled of the non-wikinotable ones. Coolabahapple (talk) 00:49, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I'd naïvely expect a list of churches of a locally prevalent denomination to be exhaustive, much like a "List of high schools in X" or a "List of films directed by Y".  Daß &thinsp;  Wölf  10:32, 4 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep - I imagine most churches (not chapels) in Europe pass GNG, and grouping them into lists by city seems to be the most natural way. I could object to a smaller list but, there are twenty potentially blue-linkable items here, certainly too much to fit into the Leicester article.  Daß &thinsp;  Wölf  15:53, 30 March 2020 (UTC)


 * NOT SO. It is not true that churches get a free pass for notability.  Historic ones in Type I and II* listed buildings, yes, but run-of-the-mill current or former churches are not worth articles and are not worth mentioning anywhere.  All the actually blue-linked ones are now mentioned in List of Roman Catholic churches in the United Kingdom, and they can be mentioned in the Places of worship in Leicester list, and they could be mentioned in the Leicester article, too (though the Places of worship in Leicester mention is more than enough, methinks.  If/when you develop 20 separate articles and those survive AFDs and those further appear to be too much to include within List of Roman Catholic churches in the United Kingdom and within Places of worship in Leicester, then sure, we can discuss the need to split those supposedly too-big list-articles.  Not happening any time soon, and I think I will always disagree about the need for any such split. --Doncram (talk) 19:19, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I've dug up an unexpected amount of info about minor old churches in Zagreb while working on other articles about my city. I haven't gotten around to writing articles about any of those churches yet, but I'd be surprised if a large portion of 150+ year-old churches hasn't attracted enough attention at least vis à vis the building to pass SIGCOV. If these do form the majority or a near-majority of all churches, why not list the rest? Being that Leicester is also an old city in a developed country with a millennium-old tradition of Christianity, I have no reason to believe the situation will be substatially different. I'm not near Leicester and wouldn't know where to start looking for offline sources which is where I've found most of the coverage in my case; hence I understand that an ought-to !vote won't carry much weight. Still, a presumption that because work hasn't been done, said work doesn't exist, isn't a strong argument either. For instance, the list of UK churches you created is very short not because that's all there is to the topic, but because you've neglected to mention 90%+ of the churches present in e.g. Category:Roman Catholic churches in the United Kingdom.  Daß &thinsp;  Wölf  18:57, 3 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete I know the closing admin will be smart enough to ignore the fallacious OSE arguments above. Wikipedia is not a directory of every church on the planet or in a particular city. List only those that are notable or designated historic in a consolidated article, but it is not appropriate to just tabulate the names of every establishment, be they religious or commercial. Reywas92Talk 20:19, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep-the Baptist article was draftified despite three scholarly sources showing the notability of the topic. It really doesn't matter how many sources we have to prove GNG when the WP policies/rules on lists are vague enough for people to interpret them how they want. The WP policies/rules on lists should be updated to end this sort of behavior.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 21:24, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete or merge blue-links article to either List of places of worship in Leicester. We should not be keeping laundry lists of mostly non notable entries. Ajf773 (talk) 01:18, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Merge only the notable entries to Places of worship in Leicester, Reywas92 is correct in that Wikipedia is not a place to list every single church in a particular place, and the churches worth mentioning can easily be consolidated in a list along with the worship places of all other religions in the main article. Devonian Wombat (talk) 03:23, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep. Not obvious how it violates the rules. PPEMES (talk) 07:14, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, the current list-article is a violation of wp:NOTDIRECTORY. And there is no source identified which meets wp:NLIST's requirement that this group or set of things ("Catholic churches in Leicester") is a thing itself of interest/importance for Wikipedia.  And it is redundant to other existing lists that include (or can include) all 3 of its examples.  Note, this AFD could have been framed, I suppose, as a Merger proposal, or I could have just boldly merged it to Leicester or the larger Roman Catholic churches list-article (and in the process simply deleted all 47 or so apparently non-notable ones) myself, but given the brouhaha about the related AFDs, I think this needs to be done by explicit AFD.  And I personally prefer "Delete" as the preferred outcome here to accentuate the idea we are getting rid of something awful, rather than characterizing this as "Merge" or "Redirect" as if to suggest there was anything of merit to be merged.
 * Please do see somewhat different comments in concurrent AFD about Anglican churches in Leicester. Here, if people want to save this list they should be presenting sources about Roman Catholic churches in Leicester, but no one is doing so.  Because, I think, it is not a notable topic. --Doncram (talk) 19:19, 31 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep. In the United States, we have articles about the Catholic Church's archdioceses and pastoral regions that include lists of each church within the diocese. E.g., Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Detroit, Our Lady of the Angels Pastoral Region or Santa Barbara Pastoral Region. This is entirely appropriate encyclopedic content. Perhaps the article at issue here would be better if similarly organized by archdiocese or pastoral region, but in no event should the content be deleted. Cbl62 (talk) 18:57, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 * There's no substantial content besides mention of 3 that have articles, and these 3 are mentioned elsewhere. As Cbl62 knows, I am a big advocate and developer of list-articles in Wikipedia, by the way;  i just see no merit in having this and the related local list-articles that add no value relative to other coverage in Wikipedia.  I'm not completely sure what I think about the archdiocese-area type articles/list-articles Cbl62 links to, but those are clearly more substantial.  And potentially sometime in the future the List of Roman Catholic churches in the United Kingdom could be split out by archdiocese or similarly (and an archdiocese is a larger geographic level than Leicester alone i am pretty sure), to make something like that,  if there is enough development to justify splitting.  But that potentially valid future purpose is not served by preserving the current directory-type list of apparently non-notable RC churches here.  Sorry, maybe too much response by me, i will comment less. --Doncram (talk) 19:30, 31 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment, is Leicester known as the "city of churches" in England (in OZ Adelaide has/had that title - although i note there doesn't seem to be one, see Category:Lists of churches in Australia)? if it does, that might warrant a "List of churches in Leicester" article with denominational sections and wikinotable churches only, but otherwise, Places of worship in Leicester can be expanded to include all the wikinotable churches (and other religious place) there. Coolabahapple (talk) 00:47, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep Satisfies WP:LISTPURP & GNG and numerous other criteria. And since nominator uses Other stuff exists for delete, just a valid reason to keep, too, as per tens of other articles just this one. Djflem (talk) 14:40, 6 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.