Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Saini recipients of military awards and decorations


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete.  Sandstein  19:00, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

List of Saini recipients of military awards and decorations

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The topic is too specific that the list only has one entry. I don't find any reason to keep this list at all. KCVelaga (talk) 06:38, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. KCVelaga (talk) 06:38, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. KCVelaga (talk) 06:38, 14 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment. I created the list as a split from Saini people in August 2010 when it looked like this, and was tagged to be split, which looked quite sensible. The list looked like this at the time: with over 40 people listed as recipients of awards, and each one cited. Looking at the history, what has happened between then and now is that User:Sitush has spent six years cleaning up the article, removing insecure sources, and then removing those listed as they had no sources supporting them being Saini. I note that Sitush has done the same at List of Saini people which used to look like this: . As Situshi has spent some time on these articles, it would helpful to have their insight into the situation. What appears to have happened is that articles and lists have  been created about Saini people, but there is some doubt as to if they actually are Saini. This is not my area of knowledge, but I understand that castes are generally identified by surname, as indicated here: . I can see it as plausible that some editors have felt it self-evident that if an individual's surname is "Saini" then they are part of the Saini caste, while others would feel that in order to be listed as part of the Saini caste there would need to be a reliable source which explicitly says "Foo Saini is a member of the Saini caste". This comes down to the Blue Sky debate: You don't need to cite that the sky is blue and You do need to cite that the sky is blue. One way round this would be to title the list List of recipients of military awards and decorations with a Saini related surname, though my thinking is that is probably what is implied in this and other caste related articles. I'm seeing both sides here, and will wait for Situshi to comment, but I'm inclined to thinking that this is a keep, and that many of the names removed should be restored. SilkTork (talk) 13:02, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think it has ever been accepted by the community that we can reliably associate caste with surname. A similar treatment has been given to numerous other articles that make this assumption and I know of no successful challenge to this.  In any case, I find it obnoxious for Wikipedia to build a classification of people by caste into its structure. SpinningSpark 21:07, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
 * User:Sitush/Common explains and is based on longstanding consensus. - Sitush (talk) 03:07, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that link Sitush, that seems to explain things quite well. SilkTork (talk) 04:21, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   10:14, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep Subject is notable. I agree with silktork  that the names should be restored (see this version) and the article should be improved with more sources. Aman.kumar.goel (talk) 05:15, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
 * those prior names cannot be restored in the format then presented - please read the explanation I linked to earlier. Briefly, last name is not verification, living people must self-identify, claims of caste associations etc are not reliable sources. The list should probably be deleted (merge what remains in it, if valid) but if you must expand it then you're going to have to follow the longstanding consensus, not restore poorly sourced stuff and original research then try to find something to support those restorations. - Sitush (talk) 02:38, 26 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete. Fails WP:LISTCRITERIA. Sure, we've sources stating that "X, Y, and Z won Bharat Ratna" and that "X, Y, and Z have black hair", but that doesn't mean we should have a List of black-haired Bharat Ratna winners. Not to mention that caste publications such as Saini Jagat and sainionline.com are not acceptable sources. utcursch &#124; talk 00:23, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete The article fails WP:LISTN and WP:GNG as there is no WP:SIGCOV that this topic is notable in independent reliable sources. Based on the above conversation, it just seems like someone's attempt, I'm not claiming intentionally, to pigeonhole people into a group they never identified with in order to create an article. Including the living people that used to be on this list without proof they were members of this caste was a major BLP violation that cannot be repeated if the article is kept. Newshunter12 (talk) 03:41, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete Fails WP:LISTCRITERIA MinervaELS (talk) 04:27, 28 April 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.