Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Salvadoran football players playing abroad


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete.  SilkTork  *YES! 15:42, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

List of Salvadoran football players playing abroad

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

Similar articles were deleted about a year and a half back, I created the Mexican players list, it was well sourced and it was still deleted. This article is very bad sourced.

I am also nominating the following related pages because it is also a list similar to the one listed above.:

 GoPurple  'n  Gold24   03:05, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I'd also add these to the list:


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of El Salvador-related deletion discussions.  --  N / A  0  03:32, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions.  --  N / A  0  03:32, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions.  --  N / A  0  03:33, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it's fine to keep the American page. It is constantly being updated with news of player moves in the transfer market. It would be a pain to go through and source each one of those players, but for from what I can see, it is being updated nearly every day. It's also a good reference for scouts.Slipperydog (talk) 04:52, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * moved from talk page to main page. --WFC-- 10:39, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This user has made very few edits outside of this topic. --WFC-- 01:23, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree... Please keep the American page. There are updates every day. It may not be perfect but I think there are enough people maintaining it that the information is very accurate —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.121.123.76 (talk) 14:50, 3 August 2010 (UTC) moved from talk page -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:53, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This user has made no edits outside of this topic. --WFC-- 01:23, 9 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete as Wikipedia is not a directory for non-encyclopedic cross-categorizations. Armbrust  Talk  Contribs  08:09, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Strong delete for lists where there is a professional league in the players' native countries, weak delete the rest as redundant per WP:NOTDIR, but also on notability grounds. The national make-up of a team or league is significant due to quotas, but in most countries we don't care if he's American, Salvadorian or Lativan, we merely care whether there is a nationality restriction on his country. For instance in England we only care whether he is an EU national or not. Whether an EU national is Latvian or English is irrelevant, as is whether the non-EU national is American or Belizian. Given that, for this purpose, Americans are a non-notable group (as are all other nationalities, including my own). In football nationality is notable within one's own country, or for determining international qualification, but not here. --WFC-- 10:33, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I have somewhat altered my thinking based on Fkp's rationale below, which I have not considered. For the purposes of this AfD, the countries with professional leagues are the USA and Australia, but to be explicitly clear I am strongly opposed to similar lists for any country with a professional league. --WFC-- 23:17, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:33, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment I'm confused why some people believe just the American list should be kept. Surely they should either all be kept or they should all be deleted. Jenks24 (talk) 15:29, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I share this opinion, and would be extremely concerned if the outcome of this discussion increases systemic bias. However, I doubt that will happen, as a majority of admins realise that AfD is a policy-based debate, as opposed to a vote. --WFC-- 16:02, 3 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep all The bar is much lower for sports articles, and their adherents tend to do a better than average job of maintaining such pages. I'm sorry that the nominator's page of "Mexican players playing abroad" got deleted, or that I wasn't there when it was being debated.    I'm amused by the statement that "it's fine to keep the American page" (in fairness, the editor wasn't advocating deleting the other pages).  There are lots of editors who are Americans, and lots of editors who are American sports fans, but very few editors who are American sports fans outside of the four major sports (baseball, basketball, football and hockey).  Are there articles about English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, etc. football players playing abroad?  Assuming that these get kept, bring back the Mexico page, you got cheated on that one. Mandsford 19:12, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * In answer to your question, those articles don't exist, and rightly so. The fact that a page may or may not be well maintained is irrelevant. --WFC-- 19:23, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Edit: one of them was actually deleted. --WFC-- 19:26, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Edit2: as was the parent list. --WFC-- 19:31, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I just say Wikipedia is not an excessive listing of statistics. Armbrust Talk  Contribs  22:10, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete - I think these lists are too poorly constructed at the moment. Take Nildeson for an example. He was born in Brazil and played in Mexico before becoming a citizen of El Salvador. Why should he be listed as a Salvadoran playing abroad? There are so many possible contentious issues with these lists, I recommend scrapping them all unless they can be very clearly defined and well-sourced. Jogurney (talk) 20:24, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete per WFC. Andrew Lenahan -  St ar bli nd  15:19, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete all - as above. GiantSnowman 18:32, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep all I believe lists of footballers playing abroad is encyclopedic and of note. I agree with the points relating to what counts as a 'nationality', but this is an issue in many other pages on Wikipedia i.e. placing players in 'English footballers' category without evidence. These articles should be improved/fully referenced, not deleted. Eldumpo (talk) 19:24, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Poor referencing strengthens the case for deletion. But even if it was referenced to featured list standards, that wouldn't change the fact that these lists aren't notable, and falls into the category of What Wikipedia is not. WP:OTHERSTUFF is not a valid argument for deletion, but as far as categories go, any biography that asserts a person's nationality without something backing that nationality up should tagged with BLPrefimprove (with an edit summary or talk page note to explain why the article is being tagged). Regards, --WFC-- 19:39, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep Improve sources, and use them in a historical perspective, as partially the Albanian is made. If it is only about the current players, it is very hard to keep continously updated and becomes recentism... Obviously, by my logic, this would be only usefull for "interesting" nations like Albania, Belize, etc. It would be ridicoulous to make a "All time Brazil players playing abroad". See my point? So, we should make some further sugestions on how to improve this lists. FkpCascais (talk) 01:03, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * You are suggesting that we keep, on the basis that every football player who has ever played anywhere should be listed everywhere, and that that would be more maintainable? --WFC-- 01:17, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, you make a good point, and I already included in my comment the issue regarding how difficult may be to keep this lists updated. The thing is that as a football statistics fan, I do apreciate to know, exemple, where do Belizean footballers emigrate, and wich Belizean players got to play in some professional leagues. If some editors are willing to make an effort to make such lists, and if they are sourced, why not give them a chance? However, we could/should make some criteriums, as for exemple, inclusion, size of the article (Kb), ... I don´t know, I´m just giving ideas. FkpCascais (talk) 04:49, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Even if this could be sourced... so what? It would be completely impossible to deal with dual nationalities. This is something that squad templates also struggle with, but it's far more pressing when nationality is absolutely central to the purpose of the article. But more importantly (taking Spain as an example but the same is true of every country with immigration restrictions, i.e. virtually every country), Barcelona don't care if the player they're buying is Belizian. They care whether the player will count as a "foreign player" (non-EU national in Spain's case). Once they've established that he is a foreign player for immigration purposes, they couldn't care less whether he is American, Belizian, Canadian or Djibouti. --WFC-- 13:48, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I understand your argument, but I also beleave that you are looking to this issue with only one side perspective in mind. Althought I don´t completely agree with you about the total non-importance of players nationalities in clubs of the major leagues, the issue becames more important when you look it from the perspective of those minor countries (while mostly don´t, certainly some, exemple, Barcelona, fans do have interess about the different nationalities of their players, and football stats fans generally I beleave do). From what I understood, English WP is the most international one, and it is not done with the exclusive interess to people from the US, UK, Australia and other anglophile nations. If some Nicaraguan editor is willing to list the Nicaraguan players that played professionally abroad, well why not allowing it? And if you, or many, by your words, don´t have interess about it, well, don´t get me wrong, but ignore it. I also don´t share interess about certain articles (and perhaps most people doesn´t, as well) but that doesn´t necesarilly mean the articles shouldn´t exist. And regarding the nationality issue, I really don´t understand what is making so much strugle at all, because beleave me, a, exemple Nicaraguan, editor knows quite 99% certainly which players are Nicaraguan, and which aren´t. Regarding nationality, the "problematic" players are just a tiny minority, even less that 1%. FkpCascais (talk) 17:34, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd question the assertion that more than 99% of nationalities are clear-cut. Indeed, a Nicaraguan editor will have a vested interested in considering people who could qualify for two or more nationalities as Nicaraguans. You do make a good point about general interest, but if players playing overseas are general interest, why not players playing in their own country? Are Steven Gerrard and John Terry of less general interest than Matt Derbyshire due to geography alone? --WFC-- 18:06, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * :) You are missing the point of those lists... While for some nations most of the players that archive to play abroad are generally more notable than the ones that don´t get contracts abroad, that may not be the case for all. Exemple, the Nicaraguan players that got to play in the US or Europe are usually the best ones, the Australians that go to play to Malaysia or Romania simply may be, or not. The point of the listing of the players that play/played abroad is not "notability because of emigrating", but more as a statistics list. On the other hand, maybe in the future we may have lists of players that played in only one club during their entire careers, players that played more than 10 consecutive seasons in the Premier League, and others of the kind. I don´t know WFC if you understand this, but I beleave, and the number of editors participating on this related articles, that many people around the world simply enjoy not only checking their nations lists of players abroad (including in this foreign players in their leagues), but like to see from other nations, as well, as for comparison purposes, or simply curiosity. Another interesting fact may be that WP is likely to be the pioneer on this kind of stats for many countries... FkpCascais (talk) 20:50, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, that is why we should make some criteriums for them. Exemple, including only professional leagues. By that, we will be sure about players notability (since playing in a pro league makes them automatically notable) and by that, we will shorten the lenght of them (most include largely players in 2nd and 3th leagues, even youth teams...). Perhaps there are other possible inclusion criteriums, lets try to see if we can work something out from here. FkpCascais (talk) 23:02, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * You make a very strong argument with your reply to me Fkp, one that I hadn't considered. I still question whether they are worthy of a place on wikipedia, but have altered my !vote accordingly. --WFC-- 23:17, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete is can always be replaced by a cat. Matthew_hk   t  c  06:19, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete all, redundant to category, too frequent updating required to be useful, and not a topic that exists independently of the list. Stifle (talk) 09:44, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete all, per WFC and Stifle. Alzarian16 (talk) 13:27, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.