Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Scottish football players playing abroad


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone  15:33, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

List of Scottish football players playing abroad

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

WP:LISTCRUFT. The list is not encyclopedic there are no sources provided and there is no evidence provided that it is a notable topic. The list is also confusing, because the title suggests it is of Scottish players playing abroad, but it includes players who have represented other national teams (eg Stuart Holden), and it includes players in the English football league system (which is also in the United Kingdom). Jmorrison230582 (talk) 20:56, 5 January 2009 (UTC)


 * This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football related deletions. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 21:06, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Didn't someone recently nominate a similar list? - Mgm|(talk) 23:16, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. GiantSnowman 00:18, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Scotland-related deletion discussions.   —Juzhong (talk) 00:21, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep, look at Category:Scottish expatriate footballers. Completely fucking useless, doesn't tell you a single thing to distinguish them. Juzhong (talk) 00:53, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete as listcruft, and the Category does an adequate job. Also, what's the point of having this list when List of British and Irish footballers who have played abroad also exists (albeit up for deletion as well)? Are Scottish players somehow more special than English, Welsh or Irish players? Bettia   (rawr!)  11:08, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I think I already mentioned that the Category is completely fucking useless because doesn't tell you a single thing to distinguish them. Maybe you missed that. Juzhong (talk) 11:45, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, and please read WP:CIVIL. Juzhong (talk) 20:20, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Please read WP:CIVIL. The list as it stands is not at all useful, because it confuses various issues as described above. It also has the weakness of being a "current" list, which means that there will always be inaccuracies (eg Steven Pressley has finished his contract with Randers). The expatriate footballers cat is more useful because it lists all Scottish players who have played outside the UK. If the user wishes to find out more detail about where and when that player was an expatriate, then they can look at the player's article. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 12:06, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * So to find people who played in Germany, or played abroad in the 1970's, I merely have to go through every entry in the category one by one. Juzhong (talk) 20:12, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually you have a point about it being a "current" list, I'd like it to cover past players as well. Juzhong (talk) 20:19, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * And don't tell me to read WP:CIVIL you hatecruft-spewing hypocrite. Juzhong (talk) 20:21, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Keep although a move to "List of Scottish football players playing outwith Scotland" might be in order. I note the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football at which the reverse logic i.e. keep/create lists as the categories are being deleted is discussed. The idea that the list should be deleted because a more comprehensive list exists, (but whose deletion is also supported by the user suggesting this) strikes me as being odd. Ben  Mac  Dui  20:25, 6 January 2009 (UTC) PS for User:Juzhong - your incivility is doing your case no good at all.
 * I wasn't actually citing that as a reason for deletion, it was just a question. My reasons are given at the start of my !vote. Bettia   (rawr!)  11:53, 7 January 2009 (UTC)


 * delete this unencyclopedic list.Bali ultimate (talk) 13:08, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * keep The list is only confusing if you don't understand what the United Kingdon is: "a unitary state consisting of four countries" according to wikipedia. As to Stuart Holden having represented another National team: he has only represented USA at youth team level! "Unencyclopedic" = "shouldn't be in an encyclopaedia" = "should be deleted from an encyclopaedia". So you're just saying, "This should be deleted because it should be deleted." --Dpw77 (talk) 16:42, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Holden played for the US in the 2008 Olympic Games. Another problem is the flexible nature of football nationality, particularly within Great Britain and Ireland. Players like Matt Elliott or Nigel Quashie wouldn't have been on this list for most of their careers, but ended up playing for Scotland. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 18:33, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Holden is listed under the heading "eligible players with dual-nationality" it very seldom happens that an eligible player becomes ineligible, a point demonstrated by your inability to find any other players in the same category. Matt Elliott and Nigel Quashie would have also been listed under "eligible players with dual-nationality".--Dpw77 (talk) 09:59, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete: Firstly, playing in England is not playing abroad. Next the list is heavily under populated and a list page of this kind would be far too long if truly compiled. Next thing is about the nationality of British over Scottish again... anyone... The list is asking for too much and isn't refined to a specific qualifications of who should be allowed on it. Govvy (talk) 18:08, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * England is a different country with a different national team and a different league set up and a different governing body. How would you define "abroad"? In what sense is the list heavily under populated? The list is complete for every top professional league in the world! The list is very specific: professional players playing outside the Scottish league set up who are eligible to represent the Scottish national team.--Dpw77 (talk) 09:59, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Abroad is defined clearly from one foreign country to another. Scotland, England and Wales are not foreign to each other. Govvy (talk) 23:54, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe in your mind that's the clear definition. In the dictionary you will find abroad defined as "Out of one's own country" which perfectly fits the sense meant here "Professional Scottish football players playing outside of Scotland".--Dpw77 (talk) 08:50, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * That requires a degree of original research, as nobody can possibly know which English / Welsh / Irish players have Scottish parents or grandparents and which don't. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 11:04, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It is actually quite easy to keep track of which players are eligible. Player's agents are very keen to promote their players eligibility. Newspapers also regularly print stories regarding eligibility (see for example this story from 2 weeks ago: [|sunday mail story]). Also, the coaches of the various Scotland youth teams make it their business to know exactly which players are eligible in order to include them in their squads see for example the national team entry for Alex_MacDonald —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dpw77 (talk • contribs) 13:13, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * In terms of international football then it is abroad. As long as this is fully explained in the list then I dont see a problem.--Vintagekits (talk) 10:24, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Keep, need's to have the definition more defined but apart from that it is a good list.--Vintagekits (talk) 10:24, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Keep, I see nothing wrong with this list at all. As it players who are CURRENTLY playing not in scotland, not players who have played abroad in there Careers. Its also a good guide as u dont have to go scrolling threw that other list for players, which is int very helpful at all.--Bookerman (talk) 23:40, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I also move to strike Juzhong's vote due to his/her aggressive behaviour, which looks like a bias vote. Govvy (talk) 00:01, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not defending the aggressive behaviour, but are you going to accuse everyone strongly in favour of keeping this list as having a "bias vote"? Am I biased too?--Dpw77 (talk) 08:57, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Well you did in fact create the article in question and have contributed most of your time to it and hardly anything else on Wiki in comparison. I do find that strange that you defend it with Bookerman and Juzhong. I can only hypothesis that all three of you are one and the same person. (On evidence: lack of different types of contributions, the contribs between the three are highly localized.) Govvy (talk) 13:16, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I think I should point out that this is technically not a vote per se - it is a discussion. If you think that a certain editors opinions are biased then the closing admin will take that into account.--Vintagekits (talk) 13:33, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete Listcruft with volatile membership. No secondary sources to establish that "Scottish players playing abroad" is notable as a group (which is distinct from, it having notable members). Also see reasons cited at earlier AFD of similar list. Abecedare (talk) 22:14, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.