Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Skylanders characters (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. OK, after two relists I think I do have to look in more depth at the actual arguments expressed... The "delete" side argues the non-notability of the topic (characters from this franchise) because of lack of sourcing, which is a strong argument for deletion that would need to be refuted with references to reliable sources establishing such notability. However, we do not have such strong arguments on the "keep" side: their opinions consist of references to a previous AfD, which is not a useful argument in and of itself; the view that there is "good information" here (not a valid argument, as has been pointed out); the view that this is a standard type of list (a valid, but solitary argument); and a link to a Google search (which is at least on point but unconvincing because this says nothing about the quality and depth of sources). Overall, the arguments for deletion are much stronger in light of our inclusion policies and guidelines, which is why I consider that we have a consensus for deletion after weighing the strength of arguments.  Sandstein  06:39, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

List of Skylanders characters
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

A long trivial list of video game characters fails WP:VGSCOPE No. 6. Looking up a couple of the characters' names on the WP:VG/RS custom Google search engine brings up plenty of mentions, but only in passing. "Standalone lists of video game characters are expected to be (1) written in an out-of-universe style with a focus on their concept, creation, and reception, and (2) cited by independent, secondary sources to verify this information." soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 13:55, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 16:10, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Video games-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 16:10, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 16:10, 15 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep per my arguments in the prior AfD. Jclemens (talk) 20:33, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi, thanks for replying. WP:VGSCOPE No. 6 is a fairly recent addition to the WP:VG/MOS. As consensus can change and the previous discussion was three years ago, I have to ask you to explain your keep !vote. soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 21:29, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm also interested in what thinks about this.  soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 21:29, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but no MOS is ever reason to delete any article, just a guide on how content is to best be presented. In this case, criteria 6 you cite in a was incompatible with WP:CSC #2. My opinion is unchanged. Jclemens (talk) 23:29, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
 * WP:NOTABILITY is WP:NOTINHERITED. Skylanders is notable, but how does a list of characters from the series meet WP:LISTN? soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 06:25, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Did you read WP:CSC? A list of NN elements from a notable fictional franchise is perfectly fine, and doesn't need notability for 1) individual elements, or 2) the concept of a list of NN elements.  It's really about WP:SIZE and WP:SS, because these should not have individual articles (per N and other reasons), but would be legitimate to include in the larger article but would balloon the size unreasonably so by doing so. Jclemens (talk) 17:43, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
 * WP:LSC also says: "Criteria for inclusion should thus factor in encyclopedic and topical relevance, not just verifiable existence." A good example of a decent list of characters article is List of The Last of Us characters. It is properly sourced, gives plenty of information on creation, development and reception of the characters. This list is just a list. It's WP:OR to look at a particular game franchise and to jot down every character that happens to appear in that particular franchise. By your logic, we could start lists about every elements in franchises: List of weapons in Doom, List of Super Mario World levels, List of Street Fighter combos, you name it.  soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 21:13, 18 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete Reviewing what I said three years ago, that there was a chance to clean up to be more encyclopedic, this article appears to have gone completely the other way. There's no attempt to put the characters into the light of secondary sources, and many of the descriptions are fan-guide level of cruft. The few characters that are notable from other series like Spyro can be summarized on the main Skylanders series page, but a full list of this, with no clear evidence from a google search that any of the other characters can achieve notability, means this should be deleted. --M ASEM (t) 21:33, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment - Forgive me if this is a silly question - this isn't my kind of game - but aren't there little toys for every character in these games? If so, aren't there endless articles discussing the announcement and release of said toys? The toys are of the characters, so I'd count that towards the characters themselves... Sergecross73   msg me  14:00, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Skylanders, unlike Disney Infinity and Lego Dimensions, does not get that much coverage from the gaming press. The figures are released in waves, so we don't have a lot of articles talking about individual character releases. AdrianGamer (talk) 15:01, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't support the use of Forbes Contributors, but that's the sort of sourcing I'm talking about though. If WP:RS's wrote articles like that, I'd certainly call it significant coverage. It might be helpful to think of this more like amiibo. Sergecross73   msg me  16:18, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
 * , does this mean you also are in favor of deleting the list? soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 21:15, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
 * No, my point was going to be that if there were other sources like this, it'd be work keeping. I forgot about this and hadn't done source hunting yet though, so I'm neutral on it for now. I just feel like it's out there - I feel like I've seen them in passing... Sergecross73   msg me  23:34, 18 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep: Let this page stay. It has good information about the characters from this franchise where this page was kept separated from the List of Spyro characters page to keep this reboot separate. --Rtkat3 (talk) 15:41, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
 * "Good information" is WP:ITSUSEFUL. soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 18:31, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete - If notability is not established, it does not need to be an article. Character lists should not be exempt from that rule. TTN (talk) 21:17, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete as this is only a list, nothing actually convincing of keeping at all for independent notability. Anything here can easily be mentioned at the main article. SwisterTwister   talk  06:32, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  MBisanz  talk 21:45, 25 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep as a standard character list covered by WP:CSC #2. First AfD was closed correctly. VMS Mosaic (talk) 03:48, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi, thanks for replying. I must say that I find the phrasing of WP:CSC No. 2 somewhat ambigious: "Every entry in the list fails the notability criteria. These lists are created explicitly because most or all of the listed items do not warrant independent articles. (...) Such lists are almost always better placed within the context of an article on their "parent" topic. Before creating a stand-alone list consider carefully whether such lists would be better placed within a parent article". That last bit to me doesn't like standard character lists are automatically covered. Also, consensus can change, that's why I'm pointing to the fairly new WP:VGSCOPE No. 6, about characters lists. soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 11:05, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Keep, because RS coverage clearly exists for these characters. Sergecross is correct in that there's sometimes even articles on individual figures when they are released.  Satellizer el Bridget (Talk)  01:46, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   06:36, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep: Per arguments made by Jclemens, Sergecross and Satellizer. Some such sources including these . In its current state, the article is lacking in sources, but the potential is there. Kokoro20 (talk) 18:07, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete or redirect to character section of the series article. The toys/characters here are synonymous with the series. They should be covered within the Characters section of the main article and spun out summary style. As it stands, the list article is a coat rack for reams of primary source material on toy minutiae instead of what the secondary sources say about the subject. Looking at the links above, the Google search is mostly about how players can make their own characters and the rest are not discussing the characters outside the context of the game (same for Kokoro's links). Again, I would be fine with a summary style split if it came to that, but right now there isn't enough obvious, cited coverage to warrant a separate article. If we needed a list of every name of every Skylanders character (and I don't believe we do, as that would be trivia), the list should have descriptions in prose proportional to their coverage in the sources. czar  19:40, 10 July 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.