Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Soviet aviators


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep.  Sandstein  07:35, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

List of Russian aviators

 * - (|View AfD) (View log)

I am a neutral party listing this article. I believe it faulty for the following two inherent reasons:

1. It is practically limitless in size. Its notability standards, as listed on the talk page, are vague, airy, ambiguous, and vastly inclusive.

2. It has no definition of a Russian ace. As I have found out through experience, a flier's citizenship can be difficult to nail down. The 17 missing World War I "Russian" aces contain at least one ace born in Lithuania and one in Latvia. All 17 won "National awards"–though not necessarily Russian awards. In fact, one of the two WWI aces presently listed won his victories and medals flying for the French air force.

To add to this list's woes, two of its editors are in an edit war over what constitutes a Russian, and it is totally uncited.

I would like to add one more caution, learned through bitter experience. Two years ago, I picked up this interesting year-old List of World War I flying aces to fill out. Through constant effort and a lot of help, it blew up into the second largest article in WP before I split it in nine about a year ago. In the process, I discovered that about 250 names is the maximum length for a list if you want to avoid browser loading problems for some readers.

Are there editors who will devote the necessary care or energy into this list? Or shall we shoot this puppy?

Georgejdorner (talk) 04:39, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep or turn into a list of lists, containing links to several standalone lists of Russian/Soviet pilots. Notability standards, as listed on the talk page, lead us to a pretty limited scope of this list. There are about 50 names now, and that's after extensive search through all the categories related to Russian pilots (with dropping perhaps additional 50-100 names that possibly should be listed, but seemed less notable to me when the initial list was compiled and current more broad criteria hadn't been set yet). Currently there is simply not enough material on Wikipedia to make the list limitless in size. But if this changes later, there is always the procedure described at WP:SALAT. When list grows in size, it shouldn't be deleted, but just split into sections. Then the largest sections should be turned into standalone lists while the initial list will link to them. This list may be eventually split either by type of pilots (civilian/military/sport etc.) or by period (List of pilots of the Russian Empire, List of pilots of the Soviet Union, List of pilots of the Russian Federation). The latter variant will fix the problem of edit wars over citizenship.
 * Comment. As for the citizenship definition in the current unsplit list, it is pretty simple for the Russian Empire and the Russian Federation. All Latvians/Lithuanians born in the Russian Empire were its subjects at the initial period of their life, and if they started their pilot career before the end of the Russian Empire, than they may be listed as Russian pilots (in the sense of citizenship). There is, however, an issue with the Soviet citizenship, which resulted in the current long discussion on the talk page. There was no de jure citizenship for each separate Soviet Republic, there was just the general citizenship of the Soviet Union. And the Russian Federation is in some ways successor state to the RSFSR, and in other ways to the Soviet Union as a whole. This complicates determining whether a person should be listed on the list of Russians when this person lived in the time of the Soviet Union. I've suggested to determine it by de facto citizenship which I understand as the actual places of birth and residence. That's how Ivan Kozhedub, who was ethnic Ukrainian born in Ukraine, but who lived actually in Moscow, RSFSR, for most of his life, may be listed among both Ukrainian pilots and Russian pilots. And that's how Oleg Antonov, who was ethnic Russian born in Russia, but who then moved to Ukrainian SSR with his Antonov design bureau, may be listed among both Russian aircraft designers and Ukrainian aircraft designers. This is a fair, broad enough and sensible approach, which makes it possible for all Soviet people de facto strongly related to Russia to be listed as Russians, and all Soviet people de facto strongly related to Ukraine to be listed as Ukrainians. Grey Hood   Talk  10:59, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment: When compiling the List of World War I flying aces, I found "Canadian" aces from the USA in the Royal Air Force, "Brits" from all over the British Commonwealth, Polish pilots in both the Austro-Hungarian and German air forces, the French air force had aspects of an aerial United Nations because of the Foreign Legion loophole, and on and on. I took the stance that their nationality at the time of their notable feats was the basis of their listing. Then in the linking articles, I noted any changes in nationality adopted by the subject, or caused by political changes of national boundaries.

http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/russia/index.php should be enlightening as to the Russian World War I flying aces. I estimate this is half the potential 40 or so entries from World War I. I should think there might be 20 notable military aviators of the era outside the flying aces.

Georgejdorner (talk) 04:07, 1 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep. The subject is notable. If someone thinks the inclusion criteria are too vague, then it's a reason to improve the criteria, not to delete the article. According to the nominator, "a flier's citizenship can be difficult to nail down" -- I disagree, per Greyhood's argumentation, and even if this were true, it would not be a reason to delete, but to be more careful. Offliner (talk) 16:41, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * This AfD nomination was incomplete (missing step 3). It is listed now. DumbBOT (talk) 13:19, 1 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Strong keep. It's a handy and useful list.  The issue of pilots whose nationality is contentious can be handled with asterisks and footnotes.  It's very useful for some readers to have all the USSR figures in one place, even if it may be necessary note that they are of non-Russian ethnic stock (or whatever the contention is).  --Johnsemlak (talk) 13:42, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep as per Johnsemlak. Edward321 (talk) 14:24, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions.  -- -- Cirt (talk) 21:19, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Weak keep - Fails WP:INDISCRIMINATE, but as noted it has the potential to become a "list of lists" type of article. - The Bushranger Return fire Flank speed 01:06, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions.  —• Gene93k (talk) 02:49, 2 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep - scope is clearly set out, despite comments above. Re: referencing, if the aviator has a linked article, then that should suffice for a ref. Aviators without articles on Wikipedia do need references. Mjroots (talk) 07:30, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.