Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Super Mario speedrunning records


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. While there were both keep and delete voters in this discussion, the argument that this article violates WP:NOTSTATS was not adequately refuted. There do indeed seem to be some reliable sources that discuss speedrunning on Super Mario games, and those sources could likely support a Super Mario speedrunning article that discusses the various aspects of Mario speedrunning and its history, rather than a listing of the various record holders and their times. I'd be happy to restore this article in someone's userspace if they would like to grab sources from it and use it as the basis for a more general (non-list) article on Mario speedrunning, or merge some of its content to other articles. ‑Scottywong | [confess] || 05:58, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

List of Super Mario speedrunning records

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Per WP:NOTSTATS. The article is a collection of speedrun records sourced to Speedrun.com with little commentary. Speedrun.com is just a leaderboard, and as such, is reliable as authentication of run times, but does not prove any notability. There are some reliable sources here that do discuss mario speedrunning, but most of them talk about the games individually and not as a collective. Therefore, this topic can be discussed in the respective individual game articles if wanted. TarkusAB talk / contrib 14:03, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Video games-related deletion discussions.  TarkusAB talk / contrib 14:03, 25 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Merge - as you stated, "this topic can be discussed in the respective individual game articles if wanted". Foxnpichu (talk) 14:26, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 18:49, 25 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete. Non-notable collection of stats based around non-notable gamers. Ajf773 (talk) 01:42, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete - we are not a mirror site for Speedrun.com Spiderone  08:59, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete - the place for stats is within the game or on the game host. Wikipedia is not a games stats site. -- Whiteguru (talk) 12:08, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Merge with some of the legacy sections of each of the games. The speed running community is definitely an important factor of each of the games' longevity, which can be seen within some of the good secondary sources cited on this article such as Vice and Kotaku. Also, I would like to comment that "Backwards long jump" is redirected to this page, as seen here!.  Yoshiman6464 ♫🥚 02:54, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
 * That can probably be retargeted to List of video games notable for speedrunning.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 04:21, 27 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete - per nom. Nigej (talk) 09:22, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete - With certain exceptions, notability is not defined. Records mentioned by third party sources, should be included in their respective game articles within reason.DMT biscuit (talk) 11:35, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete: per nom. WP is not a collection of stats. If an individual list item is notable and sourced, it can be included in the appropriate article.   // Timothy ::  talk  16:34, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete – As the creator of these articles, I approve. I've always regretted writing these articles because they require a ton of upkeep, and sourcing world record stats is weird. These pages were never supposed to use Speedrun.com times, because plenty of publications were covering new world records. But that ended up the easiest way to keep track and it's all just kinda pointless. ~ Maplestrip/Mable ( chat ) 10:38, 28 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep - Looks like I'm going against the grain here. Mario Brothers speedrunning is a notable subject, and its practice and community have significant coverage apart from the games themselves. This is a way to cover that notable subject in one place rather than spread out over articles about the games themselves (the speedrunning of Mario 1, Mario 2, Mario Maker, etc. have more in common with each other than each has with the game). As perhaps the most popular series in the speedrunning community, it is among the most prominent examples in the scholarly literature about speedrunning and gets mainstream press coverage sufficient to justify a stand-alone article (whether a list or a topic page -- I tend to prefer the latter, but this list is fine material to start it with). We shouldn't just be mirroring speedrun.com, of course, but it's an acceptable primary source for records that also receive secondary source coverage. In addition to the very easy to find coverage in popular and video game press (search any video game website like Kotaku, Polygon, or even video game adjacent sites like Vice for "mario speedrunning" and find hundreds of hits covering all of the records on this list, the community, etc.) there's also more academic stuff like Journal of Posthuman Studies, Eludamos, Game Studies, and theses. &mdash; Rhododendrites  talk \\ 22:02, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I see what you're saying, and that might be possible, but we shouldn't use this article as the base. There's already a section at List of video games notable for speedrunning. The topic can be nurtured there and then split if it becomes unwieldy. This nom is asking if a "List of [...] records" copied from speedrun.com should be kept or not. TarkusAB talk / contrib 23:55, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
 * This nom is asking if a "List of [...] records" copied from speedrun.com should be kept or not Unless you're arguing for WP:TNT, the current state of the article isn't part of AfD. I see about 10 secondary sources already cited. The point is, most of these can be sourced to independent reliable sources. That many are currently only sourced to speedrun.com is a problem, but it's not a problem with the subject and isn't pervasive enough to merit TNT. Thanks for pointing out List of video games notable for speedrunning. A more in depth list of independent/secondary-sourced records would probably be undue there, and there's enough coverage that I don't see why we'd want to try to build it out there first when this page already exists. &mdash; Rhododendrites  talk \\ 00:02, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't see why we'd want to try to build it out there first when this page already exists. Because this article is titled "List of records". I'm only advocating to delete this list of records. Even the prose in this article is just listing off record times. There is not enough content in the article beyond record times to warrant moving/redirecting to a different name and changing scope. If you want to try making a topical article that discusses glitch discovery, routing, techniques, history, community, notable runners, etc (you know, stuff RSs talk about), you are welcome to. That's a different scope. TarkusAB talk / contrib 00:57, 30 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Namcokid  47  (Contribs) 22:57, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Merge Reviewing notability, its just speedrun.com. I think though, however, the speedrunning categories can go into their respective game articles, as it's a type of culture with popular impact, along the lines of an e-sport (maybe).  This article is an index of what's on Speedrun.com, but it'd make sense in the other article, as its a culture.  Can we put that to action for now?Le Panini (talk) 15:08, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The AfD process is supposed to consider what sources exist, not just which ones are in the article now (WP:NEXIST). Don't know that that would change your !vote, though. &mdash; Rhododendrites  talk \\ 16:17, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I bet there are sources that talk about speedrunning or speedrunning Mario games in particular. If it is notable enough with proper citation, then it should stay, but if not, I think it make sense to have its own portion in its respective game.  Le Panini (talk) 16:21, 2 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep Notable topic per Rhododendrites rationale. Lightburst (talk) 00:26, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep I went ahead and Google news sourced for this, and its something that gets reviewed a lot. https://nymag.com/speed/2016/12/super-mario-run-owes-its-record-popularity-to-the-speedrunner-community.html gives ample coverage to different speedrunners and their times.  https://www.engadget.com/2017-10-23-super-mario-64-speedrun-record-cheese05-puncayshun-interview.html gives a whole article to a speedrunner for this game.  A few others get brief mention at https://www.ft.com/content/12c385fa-3be1-11ea-b232-000f4477fbca Google news "Super Mario" "speedrunning" and plenty more results to search through.  Searching for the names of people listed will also get results.   D r e a m Focus  03:03, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Since the Keep and Delete !votes are nearly equal, with some Merge !votes, is this AfD gonna close as No Consensus? Foxnpichu (talk) 16:13, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The delete votes were made before someone bothered to check and found coverage of the things on the list does exist. AFD is not a vote count.   D r e a m Focus  16:18, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Of course not. That’s why I labelled them !votes. Foxnpichu (talk) 16:32, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * No need to be condescending, boss. No one is arguing that Mario speedrunning isn't notable or covered in RSs. It is. I agree there is potential for a Mario speedrunning article. However, the scope of this article is a "List of records". It's in the title. That's virtually all that's written about in the article. Even in prose, it's "This guy got this time, but then this guy got that time," without any context. This violates WP:NOTSTATS. The sources you are sharing would be great for a topical article which discusses the community, notable runners, glitches, techniques, etc. That's a different scope and should start fresh and not from reworking this stats dump. TarkusAB talk / contrib 16:45, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * A Mario speedrunning article would list the information there is now, including the stats, so be the same thing. Just a different name.  This article is not just stats, it is plenty of other valid information.  The created of the Mario games said he created Super Mario Run because of the speedrunners.  Quite notable.   D r e a m Focus  04:37, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
 * A Mario speedrunning article would list the information there is now, including the stats, so be the same thing. No it would not because that's all sourced to Speedrun.com which is user-made / unpublished content and does not indicate notability.
 * This article is not just stats, it is plenty of other valid information. I wouldn't say plenty. It's slim pickings. Most of the prose is just listing record times sourced to Speedrun.com. TarkusAB talk / contrib 13:13, 4 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete - per nom. Videogameplayer99 (talk) 22:59, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete per TarkusAB. While Super Mario speedrunning can be a notable topic, List of Super Mario speedrunning records would be a list of WP:TRIVIA that wouldn't have much value in Wikipedia. OceanHok (talk) 17:24, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep I have searched and found reliable sources as said. Northern Escapee (talk) 06:58, 5 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete- this is an excessive collection of trivia more suited for a speedrunning Wikia. I note that the article on Speedrun is already very long and crufty, so I think Wikipedia already covers all it needs to on this topic. Reyk YO! 08:39, 5 October 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.