Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of United States tornadoes from November to December 2012


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. It is now November 1, so in theory an article can cover the lack of torandoes.  MBisanz  talk 00:19, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

List of United States tornadoes from November to December 2012

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Unremarkable subject, little information, no references. CynivalLet's Chat! 00:13, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete. It's still October 2012, this is a list created for events that have yet to occur. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. -- xanchester  (t)  00:33, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Userfy - Too soon, userfying may be better than deleting as tornadoes for November and December will eventually happen. October is not finished yet and the only useful content the article cites is the tornadoes for October which can easily be read at List of United States tornadoes in October 2012. SwisterTwister   talk  02:33, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Deleting and userfying are not necessarily mutually exclusive. ;) -- xanchester  (t)  02:34, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep - by the time this AfD is over, it will be either the 31st or the 1st, which I say is close enough to November to warrant the article. Also seeing as the article is not saying that anything is specifically going to happen, CRYSALBALL does not apply.  " Pepper "  @ 18:40, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * It does apply, and weather events are provided as an example. "Individual items from a predetermined list or a systematic pattern of names, pre-assigned to future events or discoveries, are not suitable article topics, if only generic information is known about the item. Lists of tropical cyclone names is encyclopedic; "Tropical Storm Arthur (2014)" is not, even though it is virtually certain that a storm of that name will occur in the North Atlantic and will turn counterclockwise." An article might be appropriate after the first event has occurred, which may not be on November 1st. -- xanchester  (t)  19:11, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Weather is indeed used as an example, but for "predetermined list[s] or a systematic pattern[s] of names", which tornadoes do not fall under. (In terms of your last point, List of United States tornadoes in October 2012 was created on 29 September. List of United States tornadoes from July to September 2012 was created on 2 July, but the first tornado didn't happen until the 13th.) I'm still sticking with my point that it would be pointless to delete this on the 1st of November, even if CRYSTAL maybe does apply.  " Pepper "  @ 21:00, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete - Its still October, and you cannot categorically state that there will be any tornadoes in these two months, even if it is highly likely that there will be. Lukeno94 (talk) 20:38, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete - Add this to the WP:CRYSTAL examples. Not a single reference. Hasteur (talk) 20:40, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:17, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:17, 25 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete. Falls short of WP:CRYSTAL, but apart from that also WP:GNG, as there's been no coverage of these storms in reliable secondary sources because they haven't happened yet. --Batard0 (talk) 10:51, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep on procedural grounds. As noted, previous articles of this type were created on or slightly before (or just after) the first date falling in the range covered by the article (Oct 2012 created on 29 Sept, July to Sept 2012 created on 2 July, etc.). This debate is scheduled to end on October 31st - one day before the stated period of time from November to December 2012. So, at that point, the article is deleted and I can swoop in and create it the very next day. Or we Userfy it and de-userfy it the next day. Both options seem to be a useless bureaucratic exercise in time wasting. Protip: There are no barnstars offered for wasting editors' time in this manner. If it were a bigger deal, I'd be inclined to protect the future articles until the day before - "Do Not Create until 1 January 2013" in the protection log for List of United States tornadoes from January to March 2013, though I don't know how that would mesh with the protection policy. But I suspect it should not matter; admonish whoever jumped the gun on this one to userspace draft the next one, or just hold their horses next time, and move on. UltraExactZZ Said~ Did 15:14, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep. Even if there should turn out to be no tornadoes during this time period, we should still have this article to state that.  Unlike, for example, the tropical storm article noted above, which would be created only if the storm happened. Matchups 15:05, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete - Item 2 of WP:CRYSTALBALL expressly prohibits articles like this, which I will discuss in a moment. Per N, notability guidelines apply to the inclusion of stand-alone lists and tables. Notability of lists (whether titled as "List of Xs" or "Xs") is based on the group. A list topic is considered notable if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources. Since it is not past December 2012, it is impossible for the topic to have received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject per N. Nothing can be said about these future tornados that is verifiable and not original research. This article also fails several WP:NOT requirements. Wikipedia is not a directory. If the past List of United States tornadoes from X to X articles (Category:Tornadoes by year) is any indication, this will be another list that fails to discriminate membership criteria to canonical examples and fails to even make an attempt at supporting the selection of entries in the list by reliable sources. This article is not a list but a Directory of United States tornadoes from November to December 2012 that is not limited to major tornado events or historically significant tornadoes. Wikipedia is not a directory everything that exists. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. If the past List of United States tornadoes from X to X articles, this will be another article in this area that does not meet WP:V. The List of United States tornadoes from November to December 2012 subject matter does not merit an article if the event had already occurred. Also, per Item 2 of WP:CRYSTALBALL, even though it is virtually certain that tornadoes will occur in the United States from November to December 2012, this list is not encyclopedic since the only information that can be know about specific future tornadoes is generic information. Wikipedia is not a newspaper: This list sits in the ready to offer first-hand news report on breaking tornadoes, whether or not they are routine tornadoes, and will serve as a diary from November to December 2012 of tornadoes in the United States. Delete. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 08:41, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep per UltraExactZZ. This would be a pointless bureaucratic deletion as the article would definitely be recreated in a day or two.  Please be sensible and apply WP:IAR.  The claim that WP:CRYSTAL item 2 applies is incorrect, this article is not an "Individual items from a predetermined list or a systematic pattern of names" but rather an overview of a group of individual items.  Spinning  Spark  10:31, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.