Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Where in the World Is Carmen Sandiego? episodes (3rd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. WP:EPISODE is unhelpful here, and there should probably be a discussion to come up with notability criteria for lists of articles. Notwithstanding, this article does not have any reliable sources, and therefore has been deleted. King of &hearts;   &diams;   &clubs;  &spades; 19:41, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

List of Where in the World Is Carmen Sandiego? episodes
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log )

First of all, the sources are inadequate (one is TV.com and the other is a forum, both of which are not really considered third-party reliable sources.) There are also issues with fancruft and original research. Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 02:13, 2 February 2012 (UTC) Appears to be a (albeit comprehensive) directory filled with excessive detail about the episodes (WP:CRUFT), which Wikipedia is not. There don't appear to be non-primary reliable sources for any of the information. Since there are no independent reliable sources I believe to exist for the individual episodes of the show, this list fails WP:EPISODE. RJaguar3 &#124; u  &#124;  t  04:18, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete. This article only caused edit-warring without reliable sources. WikiLubber (talk) 02:33, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete. My statement when I nominated this article for deletion last year speaks for itself:
 * As I read it, WP:EPISODE is (unsurprisingly to me) about creating articles for individual episodes, not about creating indexing lists such as this one which is done routinely for series in which none of the individual episodes are considered notable. Nor is the lack of secondary sources in and of itself a problem for this kind of list. postdlf (talk) 04:28, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * From WP:EPISODE: "The following guideline aims to promote the creation of high-quality articles about television shows and their episodes. This includes lists of episodes, television series/season articles, and television program articles." (emphasis changed) Also, in WP:EPISODE, the guideline advises editors to "[c]reate [a] page for the television PROGRAM. Once there's enough verifiable information independent of the show itself, [then create] a page for each series/season, or a 'List of episodes' page with every season/series."  RJaguar3 &#124;  u  &#124;  t  17:06, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
 * We can reject all of the above deletion rationales as either irrelevant to this kind of list or as raising editing concerns instead of deletion concerns. But I do see two valid deletion issues here to discuss. 1) Is this is the type of TV series for which we maintain episode lists, or is this essentially a game show? 2) Given that the series is apparently not available on DVD, does that now make a description of it unverifiable if we can't locate reliable secondary sources? postdlf (talk) 04:28, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * 1. This is essentially a game show.
 * 2. I'm not sure. WikiLubber (talk) 14:23, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 12:51, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 12:51, 2 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep but remove the outcomes of the map and the scores. Just put the episode name, the crook, the loot, and the episode air-date. ACMEWikiNet (talk) 13:54, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Any comment on the questions I raised? Because right now I don't know why you think it should be kept. postdlf (talk) 14:02, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete - no possible encyclopedic purpose; just a collection of fancruft and trivial detail. -- Orange Mike &#x007C;  Talk  14:46, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete. The article lacks any reliable sources for verifiability.  —   Fourthords  &#124; =Λ= &#124;  19:31, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete, it's a freaking game show. This would be akin to listing every bonus puzzle on Wheel of Fortune (yesterday's was A HUGE HIT, by the way). Game shows don't have a "plot" to speak of that requires an episode list. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 23:10, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep in fact, a very strong keep. I can understand a feeling against having articles on individual episodes. But a list of episodes is the minimally needed encyclopedic  content. As for the verification problem, has anybody looked in any of the professional level video sources or specialized libraries?   DGG ( talk ) 05:59, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
 * If this were a dramatized TV series (i.e., fiction, not necessarily of the drama genre) I'd agree with you, but if this is really a game show, then episode lists aren't standard practice here, nor are they useful information in my view. Do you think the characterization of this show is incorrect, such that the dramatized bits per episode are substantive enough to make it more than just a game show, or are you saying that even if it is a game show, it should have an episode list? postdlf (talk) 16:22, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
 * To be fair, a list of episodes of the game show Legends of the Hidden Temple was kept at AfD last year when I nominated it. List of BrainSurge episodes was deleted.  List of My Family's Got GUTS episodes exists, but it has not been nominated for deletion.  So there is at least some precedent for game shows having episode lists (although I personally think the continued existence of these articles should be revisited at some point).  RJaguar3 &#124;  u  &#124;  t  17:14, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete - Although there's a sense of individuality to the episodes, this is still just a game show. Specific episodes can be (sparingly) mentioned in the parent article to give examples of the format, but there's no real need for a list. GRAPPLE   X  18:28, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete, unfortunately, based on reliability grounds. I assume the info to be correct, actually, but we can't check if it's valid without a reliable list like on DVDs or by the creators. As time goes on, the problem will just increase. – sgeureka t•c 10:35, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Stong Keep - These aren't individual episode articles we're talking about here. DanTD (talk) 21:45, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.