Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of avowed Christians in science


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result of the debate was no consensus to delete, so kept. Johnleemk | Talk 13:06, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

List of avowed Christians in science
This is a partial re-creation of the original List of Catholic scientists which was deleted here (quite convincingly). This page was started largely as a response to that vote and as such is a borderline speedy based on WP:CSD, G4. However, there was an attempt to tighten criteria and introduce greater sourcing in the new article and thus they are not identical; after discussion it was decided to place it back on AfD. Note that the List of Catholic scientists was remade as a re-direct immediately after the AfD and is itself on WP:RfD. Given that this nomination is essentially a matter of AfD integrity rather than specific content, I will abstain. Marskell 21:43, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete not just because it's listcruft, but also because an exhaustive list would be vast (half the Christian Union at uni were scientists, and several of them are now Professors, in the British university system sense of occupying chairs or being head of department). Also, it's arbitrary, and worst of all it entirely fails to explore the fundamental issue (namely the relationship between science and Christianity).  This is supposed to be an encyclopaedia, not a game of Trivial Pursuit. Just zis Guy, you know? [T]/[C] (W) AfD? 22:28, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Move and expand to List of religious believers in science. The criterion for inclusion should be that the person is notable as a scientist, and notably defended religious belief. --Trovatore 22:33, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I'd accept that. I'm normally a rule abiding person and I wasn't intending to hurt the integrity of the place. It's just that on the deletion page of the Christian one I got some sense a list like this would be acceptable. I wasn't "sneaky", in case that's a concern, as if you check the delete page I said I'd make this page to see if it's more what's wanted. I guess this is will get a sense of the answer.--T. Anthony 02:28, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
 * That said "religious believers" might be broad enough it'd be unacceptable. Possibly "theologians in science"(with sections for different religions) or "Writers concerned with 'religion and science'" would be better. Although ideally I'd prefer it to stay specific to Christianity, as we have List of Muslim scientists and philosophers already, I'd accept that kind of change.--T. Anthony 02:16, 25 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Delete per above. Do not expand, do not move.  Postdlf 22:37, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Do not pass Go, do not collect $200... - Just zis Guy, you know? [T]/[C] (W) AfD? 23:19, 23 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Keep and rename I voted to delete the original articles as too vauge, it could encompass any scientist who called themselves Christian or Catholic - which is just about all of them before modern times, and for many scientists their religion has played little or no part in their science. However, I see where this article wants to go, it want to include those people who are notable both for being religious and for being in science. And that is an important cross over, for many of them have been influential in the science and religion debates over the ages - many will have published cross-disciplinary works (e.g. John Polkinghorne). Providing this isn't a list of scientists who go to church, or clergymen with an MA in physics, but the subjects are notable for being cross-disciplinary, then keep. But rename - and I'm not sure what. --Doc ask? 00:47, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
 * If it survives it will be renamed. Possibly something like "List of contributors to Christian and scientific history" or "List of scholars of Christianity and science" or something.--T. Anthony 01:43, 25 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Keep. Achieves relevance and verifiability. Durova 07:47, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. More POV mixing of orthagonal groups into a single list. Turnstep 20:54, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Refactor. The list is useless as it is. It only becomes useful when it is a list of those who have commented in some way on the relationship of their own faith to their science. I would get rid of all the rest, where they are merely people who have done science and are known to be believers. John Polkinghorne is perhaps the canonical (excuse the pun) example who would belong on the list. Some title change is absolutely necessary ('avowed Christians' is POV). However, if this isn't the community consensus, then it would be better to delete and start over again. David | Talk 21:00, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. One of the best of these types of lists that I've seen. Could be an extremely useful starting point for students. Should not be expanded to other religions as someone may have suggested. -- JJay 07:39, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'd prefer it stay about Christianity, others on other religions is fine, but I was willing to expand if that'll save it from delete. I may have gone overboard on fixing it tonight:)--T. Anthony 10:20, 25 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Delete as per Articles for deletion/List of Catholic scientists. Avowed just add NPOVness. User:Ejrrjs says What? 03:06, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Okay, I respect that. However statements there included "In brief: the quality of these lists is too low for them to be useful. It doesn't say how they were made or what the criteria for inclusion are, and no sources are given, so cleanup is practically impossible. User:Dpbsmith." I tried to make very clear what the criteria are here and pretty much all sources are listed. "First, it's impossible as a list, as all Western scientists prior to Henry VIII were "Catholic," and scientists don't have to declare their affiliation when they get their special Science Card and secret handshake in graduate school." I added that all names before 1600 have to be noted as such. Scientists may not have to list their religious affiliation, but in the case of in least Eyring it was mentioned at the National Academy of Science obituary. Other objections to that list was that it was too arbitrary or too loosely associated. I think that should be much less true now.--T. Anthony 06:13, 26 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Keep the first sentence convinces me this is of value..... to help in the look at the relationship between christianity and science
 * Keep &mdash; Encyclopedic. &mdash; RJH 00:53, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep Izehar 22:18, 28 November 2005 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.