Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of black Academy Award winners and nominees


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Asmodea Oaktree (talk) 13:30, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

List of black Academy Award winners and nominees

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Unencyclopaedic cross-categorisation. The “black” designation makes little sense in a WP:GLOBAL context and therefore the list relies on significant WP:OR in deciding who is “black” with subsequent WP:BLP issues. A precedent has been set for this in a recent AfD discussion. Vladimir.copic (talk) 12:50, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. Vladimir.copic (talk) 08:33, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

I am also nominating the following related page because it has all of the same issues:
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 13:23, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Vladimir.copic (talk) 08:32, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions. Vladimir.copic (talk) 08:55, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions. Vladimir.copic (talk) 08:55, 30 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep, but restrict to winners. There are plenty of sources: Oscars: A Look Back at the African-American Winners (The Hollywood Reporter), Oscars: What does a win really mean for Black actors' careers? (USA Today, subscription required), The Way-Too-Short List Of Black Oscar Winners (Essence), A Complete List Of Black Golden Globe Winners (BET), Three Black Film Actors Win Golden Globes for the First Time Since 2007 (Variety), Andra Day tearfully accepts Golden Globe as first Black Best Actress winner in 35 years (Entertainment Weekly). Clarityfiend (talk), 22:57, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I think we need to bear in mind that the use of the term Black has a different meaning when used in the US and usually refers to African-American which is a different thing and would not encompass people such as Chiwetel Ejiofor. We need to have a WP:GLOBAL stance. Vladimir.copic (talk) 23:43, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * You are mistaken. Black as used in the US would encompass people such as Chiwetel Ejiofor. Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 05:01, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I am fairly certain Ejiofor is not African-American, which was my point. Vladimir.copic (talk) 08:16, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
 * What exactly is your point? This is not a list of African Americans, and Ejiofor is considered black by, among others The Independent and The Guardian. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:17, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Ok now do Rachid Bouchareb and Abderrahmane Sissako. Vladimir.copic (talk) 11:18, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Stop with the bigotry, making people prove the blackness of light skinned people because they don’t appear black enough to you is so offensive I hardly know how to even start. Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 16:12, 30 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Expanded nomination - I did the initial edit on my phone so want to expand my nomination based on my vote for the Emmy Award winners discussion. I am sure this passes WP:NLIST to some degree (probably not through the most reputable sources) but I think it is a tricky cross-categorisation. My nomination is based on the inherent WP:BLP issues with this. Most sources will probably not have an exhaustive list of "black Academy Award winners and nominees" so requires editors to do some compiling of their own. Editors will inevitably do some WP:SYNTH or WP:OR to determine who is "black". I know this might seem silly or like I am a pedant but this is actually a reasonably complex designation (especially for non-Americans). I don't think editors should be the ones to catalogue a living person's ethnicity. Telling examples currently on the list:
 * Abderrahmane Sissako is Mauritanian/Malian. I am not sure of his exact ethnic background as both countries are multi-ethnic and contain arab-berbers (who typically would not be described as "black") as well as ethnic groups that might be more typically described as "black" (of course this is not a term really used in Africa). But it is not my place to decide the ethnicity of a living person.
 * Sophie Okonedo could equally appear on a white or Jewish list (see her WP for her own complex views on her identity).
 * Rachid Bouchareb is Algerian-French. Usually I wouldn't think someone of this background is "black" but again not my place to say.
 * Remi Adefarasin I can find no sources discussing his background aside from him being English. His first name sounds French, last name maybe African or Arabic? Is this grounds for editors to designate a living person "black"? Should we really care whether he is "black" or force him into a category?

There are many others on the list of ethnically mixed parentage (Tracee Ellis Ross, Jennifer Beals, Ruth Negga etc). Ultimately we would need a source confirming a winner/nominee is "black" as well as that they were a winner/nominee and I do not think editors will do that. Then we just end up with WP:BLP and WP:V issues. Vladimir.copic (talk) 23:32, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? I provided two reliable sources which name names. Whether you consider them black or not is irrelevant. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:01, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
 * So that means the list will only be people who happen to be explicitly given this specific cross-categorisation in a reliable source which will make a strange list and would probably cut the current content in half. I completely agree that my view on someone's ethnicity is irrelevant! My point is exactly that editors shouldn't be deciding if someone is black or not. The example I gave here was Trevor Noah who was decidedly not "Black" in South Africa and was designated "Coloured" by the government and may still be socially considered coloured in post-apartheid South Africa. Switch to a US context and Noah is considered "black" and was included in a similar list. WP should have a global outlook and not succumb to these floating categories. The list just doesn't make sense. Vladimir.copic (talk) 08:16, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Seriously? Noah is considered black everywhere but in apartheid-era South Africa, so that somehow constitutes a problem? Clarityfiend (talk) 09:22, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Also, your argument regarding editors deciding whether someone qualifies can easily be fixed by proper sourcing. Afd is not for cleanup. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:26, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I’m not here to educate you on these matters. Please read the Coloured people article. Maybe throw in the one-drop rule one too to see the differences in global and historical definitions of black. The world is bigger than America. Vladimir.copic (talk) 11:12, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Is this comment some way of proving that this will be an issue by being as offensive as possible while remaining civil? Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 05:34, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I really am not sure how anything I have said is offensive. I made exactly the same arguments here and editors agreed with me. What I find offensive is Wikipedia editors going around and dividing living people by ethnic categories like Victorian anthropologists. The world is a wide and complex place not easily shoehorned into these simplistic categorisations. Vladimir.copic (talk) 08:16, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
 * "Rachid Bouchareb is Algerian-French. Usually I wouldn't think someone of this background is "black" but again not my place to say.” is objectively offensive, Bouchareb partially centers his artistic identity on his blackness (for instance the film Little Senegal) and your denial of that fact is not only offensive to Bouchareb in particular but to all black Algerians. Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 16:12, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
 * For those thinking racial categorisation is a simple and not contested issue I have some suggested reading from just a quick google, , , the list goes on and on...Vladimir.copic (talk) 09:09, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
 * You appear to be committing colorism in the name of combatting racism. You oggling a picture of someone and declaring them either black or non-black is extremely offensive. Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 16:12, 30 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete These largely unsourced articles are WP:BLP and WP:OR nightmares there is no way to properly verify and maintain. These sub-topic lists of black "X" award winners and nominees are also an arbitrary creation. One article each for all Academy Award and Golden Globe Award winners and nominees is one thing, but a random-segregated WP:OR list fails WP:V. I would further add that both articles were created in the late 2000's, when article standards were far lower, and people could and did make articles on anything they as individuals wanted. Newshunter12 (talk) 16:02, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep, AfD is not cleanup and we have more than enough sources to get over the WP:GNG hump. Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 16:15, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete Black Golden Globe winners at minimum, since it’s the only article of its kind and is about a lower-profile, less respected award show than the Academy Awards. I’m neutral on the Academy nomination but the List of Black Emmys list was deleted so that may be a precedent. Dronebogus (talk) 00:31, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete: Per two delete votes above and WP:NOR. Kolma8 (talk) 05:25, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
 * What OR? I've provided sources. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:21, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
 * @Clarityfiend, also who will be doing the decisions on who needs to be included?
 * I assume the article implied to list all Black_people who won or was nominated to Academy Awards? Then it can become very disputatious very fast IMHO, which is to the point @Horse Eye's Back made above that such term may be offensive (and even inaccurate by some experts). Google on Jesse Jackson's remarks in 1988 about the offensiveness of the term. Also, M-W still mentions that "Use of the noun Black in the singular to refer to a person is considered offensive."
 * Or is it a list of African Americans with Academy Awards honors?
 * Or why not create the latter and a list of Academy Awards winners from Africa?
 * What are we trying to give here to a Wikipedia reader?
 * The very fact of the existence of this discussion proves how contentious this article is. Kolma8 (talk) 00:13, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? Black means black. And reliable sources determine who goes on the list, as I've stated over and over again. Sniff, sniff. I smell red herrings. Clarityfiend (talk) 04:26, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
 * @Clarityfiend, your reply is not really helpful as you did not ask any of my questions, you lolled an argumentum ad hominem while being very much nescient about your own logical fallacy here. Please keep it civil and don't turn this discussion into a donkeywork. Kolma8 (talk) 00:07, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I feel like people most likely aren’t going to be convinced by stating that something means itself without defining what you mean. Dronebogus (talk) 04:46, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
 * @Dronebogus +1 Kolma8 (talk) 00:08, 7 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep WP:GLOBAL is not grounds for deletion and suggesting that the article necessarily fails WP:OR and WP:BLP simply because its subjects are identified as black is specious at best (and possibly an attempt at deliberate erasure at worst). Viciouslies (talk) 02:20, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep, as this is a well-covered topic, the article just needs cleanupJackattack1597 (talk) 23:45, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep. Lots of WP:SUSTAINED press on this topic. Passes WP:SIGCOV.4meter4 (talk) 01:18, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep. The topic receives coverage because representation is important in fields in which people are both underrepresented and snubbed in recognition of their achievements due to their ethnicity as perceived by those determining whether recognition should be given. BD2412  T 05:39, 7 October 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.